14-year old Pakistani girl activist shot by Taliban

[merithyn]

It's the bolded part that I don't understand. Why does it matter to you if they openly worship or practice their faith?

For starters I'm generally uneasy about being showy about religion in general.  For me it's more of a private thing.  Even people in my own church make me feel uncomfortable if they make a big display about it.

But to go further I'll flat-out admit I dislike wiccanism/paganism. 

It sounds an awful lot like "I don't care if they're queer so long as they don't act like it."

Should they never acknowledge that they aren't like you so that you can be safe in your coccoon of your version of normalcy?

Yeah, kinda.

Well, okay then. At least you recognize where it comes from and own it. Can't really fault you for that.

[Queequeg]

Coming from your background, I would think you would be a little more understanding (and certainly less scathing) about alternative religions from the The Big Three. Surely you recognize that people have a right to find their own way without having to bend to what's most common or understood or known.

Let me divulge a little bit of my "background."

My first memories of a religion are of Judaism.  I went to a local Jewish pre-school.  Judaism was one of my first characteristic obsessions.  The school was right next to a Synagogue.  Some of my first memories are of the building-I remember walking in to talk to a seemingly ancient Rabbi, staring at the collection of art on the wall besides the Synagogue, asking exuberance questions on the Tanakh and trying to find similarities between my friend's Judaism and my semi-Christianity. 

From a very, very early age I was far more enamored with Judaism than with Mormonism.  I once broke a Minorah in a store because I thought it was stupid that, being Mormons, we didn't even properly celebrate Christmas, so there was no reason we couldn't celebrate Hanukkah, what I assumed was a more ancient holiday than Christmas. The Mormon dietary laws struck me as stupid-the Old Testament specifically forbade ham but allowed wine, but my parents were silly and did the opposite.  A part of this was, as you no doubt guessed, motivated by a childhood urge to conform-I didn't really enjoy being the foot-taller blond gentile in my class, and hated that I had to leave after Kindergarten.  I remembered talking about the Bible and real, ancient tradition in class every day, and I fucking loved it.  My teachers still remembered me as "the blonde kid who asked a lot of questions on the Torah."  The spirit of scholarly pursuit and inquisitiveness was infectious. 

My first memories of Mormonism are almost all  negative.  One day in Sunday School when I was about 6, my teacher explained to me that Joseph Smith was born in America, and that Mormons didn't come over with the Mayflower.  I actually asked my teacher "Wasn't Joseph Smith lying, then?", because I already had a bunch of kid's books on Archaeology that didn't gel with Mormonism.  The songs were stupid.  The Church was hideous, and smelled of cleaning supplies.  The people were boring, and the classes were all brainwashing rather than attempts to interact with religious texts.

Negative opinion turned to hatred when I was about 9, and my dad explained to me the then-current controversy of Mormons baptizing Holocaust victims.  The idea that the gift of 5,000 years of tradition-of beauty, art, scholarship and culture-would be written off after they had died for their faith filled me with such a wave of disgust that I started screaming. 

15 years later, and it's still a source of deep personal shame that at some point all of my ancestors abandoned the faith of Pilgrim's Progress, Paradise Lost and good, sensible Upstate New York Puritan values for a book that can charitably be described as sub-par Conan the Barbarian fanfiction.  I have zero respect for Mormonism as a faith and the entire Mormon religious hierarchy.  It's a complete perversion of Christianity, and nearly completely devoid of intellectual and cultural heft.  The Yankee Protestantism my ancestors abandoned gave the world Moby-Dick, while Mormonism has given the world John McNaughton and Stephen Covey.  Mind you, Neopaganism has given the world less than Mormonism by any metric. 

[Viking]

No, both statement have truth value independent of belief. One is a statement about a fact about x, the other is a statment about a fact about your state of belief. No belief is required for either statement to be true or false. They are either true or false independent of my belief in their truth or falseness.

The only fact that is relevant about a belief is it's existence. Belief has no effect on truth.

Are you claiming that the truth of the statement "I believe x" is independent of whether or not I, in fact, believe x?

No, I'm saying the statement "I believe x" is independent of the fact "x = true".

[The Brain]

How the hell do you interact with a religious text in a way that's even remotely suitable for children?

[Maximus]

No, I'm saying the statement "I believe x" is independent of the fact "x = true".

Of course it is. How does that have anything to do with what I said?

[merithyn]

Coming from your background, I would think you would be a little more understanding (and certainly less scathing) about alternative religions from the The Big Three. Surely you recognize that people have a right to find their own way without having to bend to what's most common or understood or known.

Let me divulge a little bit of my "background."

My first memories of a religion are of Judaism.  I went to a local Jewish pre-school.  Judaism was one of my first characteristic obsessions.  The school was right next to a Synagogue.  Some of my first memories are of the building-I remember walking in to talk to a seemingly ancient Rabbi, staring at the collection of art on the wall besides the Synagogue, asking exuberance questions on the Tanakh and trying to find similarities between my friend's Judaism and my semi-Christianity. 

From a very, very early age I was far more enamored with Judaism than with Mormonism.  I once broke a Minorah in a store because I thought it was stupid that, being Mormons, we didn't even properly celebrate Christmas, so there was no reason we couldn't celebrate Hanukkah, what I assumed was a more ancient holiday than Christmas. The Mormon dietary laws struck me as stupid-the Old Testament specifically forbade ham but allowed wine, but my parents were silly and did the opposite.  A part of this was, as you no doubt guessed, motivated by a childhood urge to conform-I didn't really enjoy being the foot-taller blond gentile in my class, and hated that I had to leave after Kindergarten.  I remembered talking about the Bible and real, ancient tradition in class every day, and I fucking loved it.  My teachers still remembered me as "the blonde kid who asked a lot of questions on the Torah."  The spirit of scholarly pursuit and inquisitiveness was infectious. 

My first memories of Mormonism are almost all  negative.  One day in Sunday School when I was about 6, my teacher explained to me that Joseph Smith was born in America, and that Mormons didn't come over with the Mayflower.  I actually asked my teacher "Wasn't Joseph Smith lying, then?", because I already had a bunch of kid's books on Archaeology that didn't gel with Mormonism.  The songs were stupid.  The Church was hideous, and smelled of cleaning supplies.  The people were boring, and the classes were all brainwashing rather than attempts to interact with religious texts.

Negative opinion turned to hatred when I was about 9, and my dad explained to me the then-current controversy of Mormons baptizing Holocaust victims.  The idea that the gift of 5,000 years of tradition-of beauty, art, scholarship and culture-would be written off after they had died for their faith filled me with such a wave of disgust that I started screaming. 

15 years later, and it's still a source of deep personal shame that at some point all of my ancestors abandoned the faith of Pilgrim's Progress, Paradise Lost and good, sensible Upstate New York Puritan values for a book that can charitably be described as sub-par Conan the Barbarian fanfiction.  I have zero respect for Mormonism as a faith and the entire Mormon religious hierarchy.  It's a complete perversion of Christianity, and nearly completely devoid of intellectual and cultural heft.  The Yankee Protestantism my ancestors abandoned gave the world Moby-Dick, while Mormonism has given the world John McNaughton and Stephen Covey.  Mind you, Neopaganism has given the world less than Mormonism by any metric.

I know. You've told us all of that before. It's why I said what I said, specifically the bolded part. Your background was one of breaking free from that which you were taught was law, and finding your own path. I mistakenly assumed that you might recognize that as a valid option in life for others.

[Queequeg]

How the hell do you interact with a religious text in a way that's even remotely suitable for children?

Keep in mind, childhood memory is malleable, and constantly nostalgic.  It probably helped that I was stuck in Sunday School until I was about 16, while by 1st Grade I was out of the Jewish school. 

[garbon]

I mistakenly assumed that you might recognize that as a valid option in life for others.

If they make the right choices. 

[Viking]

I'm not saying it shouldn't work for you, I'm just saying it is untrue and will eventually come into conflict with reality. You are the one telling me that I live a life without joy, happiness or meaning. That just isn't the case.

I never said that you didn't have joy, happiness or meaning. I said that you're missing a part of life that I am not. I also said that by only focusing on the negatives of religion you are missing all of the wonderful things that it's accomplished.

Yes, I'm missing out on the joy and happiness I could get from believing that I had a winning lottery ticket or a 2 kg diamond buried in my  back yard. I refer you to what Russel said about the happiness of drunks.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."

WTF? I wonder if you are reading what I write. This has nothing to do with selfishness. My acceptance of an idea is mediated only by it's truth value, if that truth makes my life uncomfortable I must deal with it. Your acceptance of an idea is mediated by the comfort it gives you.

I ask you, which is more selfish? Is my putting truth as the highest ideal more selfish than your putting your own comfort as the highest ideal?

You have this the wrong way round, I am not trying to force my arbitrary truth on the world, I am trying to force the world on my arbitrary truth.

By declaring that your view is the only "true" view, you are selfishly trying to force everyone else to live as you do, regardless of the vast benefits we derive by living differently. And please don't pretend that your view of the world doesn't give you comfort, because it obviously does. Not only does it give you comfort, but it also seems to provide you with a superiority complex over all of those who are handicapped by believing in religion.

I acknowledge that you have a valid world view, that it obviously works well for you, and that there doesn't appear to be a need to change it, even though it is very contrary to my own world view. You do not accord me the same respect. Which is more arrogant, especially since you've admitted that we're all, really, just guessing here?

I'm not declaring my view as true. I'm doing the precise opposite. I want to replace as many as possible of my false beliefs with true ones. If I accepted your facts as true my world view would change. If I thought some other world view more more true than mine I'd change my world view.

[Viking]

No, I'm saying the statement "I believe x" is independent of the fact "x = true".

Of course it is. How does that have anything to do with what I said?

then why did you continue to argue with me when I kept repeating this?

jeeze, you people need to start asking yourselves "what did he mean when he wrote this?" before writing long posts telling me I'm wrong...

[Razgovory]

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism.  If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.  But that's hard, and some people would like some flaky faith they just made up that corresponds to their political beliefs.  Also, Indo-European paganism tended to be rather racist (which what attracted extreme right wing groups to in the 19th and 20th century).

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

Just curious. Beyond the white-washed version you see in movies and in the odd newspaper article about flaky folks in the woods, what do you actually know about any Pagan religions? Do you have any idea whatsoever is required by any of them in order to be on the "correct" path for themselves? Because from what I've read there is no easy path, especially when they're trying to figure it all out for themselves.

As for "if someone were really serious about paganism", you say that as if these people have just gone, "I think I'm going to be pagan!" rather than that they found a spiritual path that resonnated with them and they decided to look more into it. Most Pagans know a good bit about the Eastern religions - probably far more than you do - and have incorporated a lot of those systems into their own. Meditation is a prime example.

Yes, actually I do.  I met several, and I've taken courses on classical culture (which included religion).  I've even read books by neo-pagans.  So yeah, I'm familiar with this bullshit.  If you are finding "a spiritual path that resonated" with you personally, or found a "correct path" for yourself, then it's not really hard is it?  You are finding a path of things you want to do or want to believe.  Take Wicca for example.  It's no coincidence that majority of it's practitioners are feminists.  Since Wicca is predicated on the idea there was was an ancient prehistoric pro-socialist matriarchy, people inclined toward feminism would find this idea attractive.  They feel empowered by it, they want to believe it.  Even if it's not true.  I believe the term is "ennobling lie".  Most of the pagans I've met don't know shit.  One chick claimed that the Catholic Church murdered 20 million witches during the middle ages (which would be about the population of 18th century France).  It's actually a common idea that bounces around pagan circles.  It's bullshit of course (it's based on really bizarre methodology), but it "resonates" with them.

[Razgovory]

Also who says that any given neo-pagans belief stem from a Greaco-Roman tradition? There are plenty of other pagan faiths on which to draw inspiration.

Who said that neo-paganism has to stem from Greco-Roman models? The late Classical Pagans were brought up as the last example of respectable pagans.

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism.  If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.  But that's hard, and some people would like some flaky faith they just made up that corresponds to their political beliefs.  Also, Indo-European paganism tended to be rather racist (which what attracted extreme right wing groups to in the 19th and 20th century).

Religion isn't suppose to be easy.  It's about sacrifice, restraint, self-discipline, yes even scholarship.  It's hard.  Take Catholicism for instance, you ever try to be good Catholic?  I mean, really delve deep into what it means, and practice it?  It's fucking hard.  Hell it's nigh impossible.  That's part of the point.  You draw strength from it, because you work at it.  It's making you stronger.

Sometimes I get tempted to reply to Raz, but then I remember who and what Raz is, the thing is none of the above is true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4

That's because you know what you are.  You are a hateful man.  You hate religion.  You have said on this board (and then got angry when I pointed it out and said you never did say it).

[garbon]

If you are finding "a spiritual path that resonated" with you personally, or found a "correct path" for yourself, then it's not really hard is it?  You are finding a path of things you want to do or want to believe.

Which is kind of what happens with most organized religions anyway. I mean it isn't as free-form as there is a lot of historical background, but still not everyone chooses to believe the same things. Just look at the multitude of denominations of Christianity.

[Razgovory]

What about India?  They are essentially Indo-European paganism. If someone were really serious about paganism they'd go that route.

Why the hell would that be true? Surely following your own religion is more serious than one someone else defines?

Cause it's the height of hubris?  "I know better then anyone else."  It's this kind of thinking that has people rejecting vaccines cause they aren't "natural" or whatever.

[Razgovory]

If you are finding "a spiritual path that resonated" with you personally, or found a "correct path" for yourself, then it's not really hard is it?  You are finding a path of things you want to do or want to believe.

Which is kind of what happens with most organized religions anyway. I mean it isn't as free-form as there is a lot of historical background, but still not everyone chooses to believe the same things. Just look at the multitude of denominations of Christianity.

I know, it's a shame ain't it?