Chicago Teachers Union leader Karen Lewis pushed back — and won

[OttoVonBismarck]

Of course one thing to consider is environment. Most Finnish kids grow up in relative comfort in the same sort of environment. The United States has a lot of kids that grow up rich and middle class, but also a lot of kids that grow up poor with bad parents or overworked single parents who are unable to be involved. The wealthiest public school districts in the United States tend to far outperform the poor ones, and some of the poorest districts actually receive more money per student because of state and federal funds targeted at those areas. But no amount of money is going to make the parents in D.C. as involved in their kids educations as the parents in Reston, and for that reason relative spending levels probably aren't a good indicator of anything.

[CountDeMoney]

Finnish high-school senior Elina Lamponen saw the differences firsthand. She spent a year at Colon High School in Colon, Mich., where strict rules didn't translate into tougher lessons or dedicated students, Ms. Lamponen says. She would ask students whether they did their homework. They would reply: " 'Nah. So what'd you do last night?'" she recalls. History tests were often multiple choice. The rare essay question, she says, allowed very little space in which to write. In-class projects were largely "glue this to the poster for an hour," she says. Her Finnish high school forced Ms. Lamponen, a spiky-haired 19-year-old, to repeat the year when she returned.

lol, that's fucked up, man.  Exchange education in the US so fubar'd, made her redo it at home.  Nuff said.

[CountDeMoney]

The bigger part is that students are graduating and going on (generally to college) without the communications or analytical skills needed to succeed in college or life.  partly this is due to bureaucracies that don't reward teaching things not easily tested, part is due to reluctance on the part of teachers to adopt teaching methods that allow kids to analyze and communicate, and part is on the parents who don't seem to care if Johnny or Suzie is really learning anything worthwhile.

That's why I don't teach in public schools anymore.

But the crush to squeeze X amount of edumacation to meet testing standings in a 50 minute period can't help with the analysis and communication skills.  There's simply not enough hours in the learning day, despite attempts to increase it or go with a year-round curriculum.

[Maximus]

The school, which is a model campus, has no sports teams, marching bands or prom.

I wonder how much of it is this right here. Schools in this country seem to be expected to be a social institution rather than an educational one.

[MadImmortalMan]

The bigger part is that students are graduating and going on (generally to college) without the communications or analytical skills needed to succeed in college or life.  partly this is due to bureaucracies that don't reward teaching things not easily tested, part is due to reluctance on the part of teachers to adopt teaching methods that allow kids to analyze and communicate, and part is on the parents who don't seem to care if Johnny or Suzie is really learning anything worthwhile.

That's why I don't teach in public schools anymore.

But the crush to squeeze X amount of edumacation to meet testing standings in a 50 minute period can't help with the analysis and communication skills.  There's simply not enough hours in the learning day, despite attempts to increase it or go with a year-round curriculum.

Part of it is this:

High-school students here rarely get more than a half-hour of homework a night.

There's a sign of grumbler's "on the part of teachers to adopt teaching methods that allow kids to analyze and communicate" point right there. If the kids are spending tons of time on homework, that's sure sign that reluctance is there. Most of the teachers teaching in the US now came though education college being taught these methods and they suck.

[crazy canuck]

But based on my research we don't spend less than other countries, we actually spend a lot more than many other countries that do much better on all the international education metrics (which can probably be debated on their merits by some.) For example Finland is usually up near the top educationally (hard to believe based on my personal internet interactions with Finns), and they actually spend less than the United States, here is an interesting WSJ piece comparing the U.S. to Finland:

The US might spend more then Finland on a per student basis but that spending does not go to the teachers. 

Here is an article referencing the most recent OECD report on teacher salaries.

http://www.mlive.com/education/index.ssf/2011/08/international_study_american_t.html

Americans ranked 22nd among participating countries, with teachers earning less than 60 percent of the average pay for full-time college-educated workers. In many other countries, teachers earn between 80 percent and 100 percent of the college-educated average, he wrote.

Spain, New Zealand and Germany were at the top, while Italy, Slovenia, Hungary, Iceland and the Czech Republic were below the United States.

Finland, the apparent new benchmark for all things education, was ranked fifth.

[derspiess]

I just realized who Karen Lewis reminds me of-- it's that large women with a slightly southern accent on that Onion "First Responders" panel.  But unfortunately her act is real

[DGuller]

I think economic equality goes a long way with such things, as it does with most social ills.  Eliminating fail cases benefits the society a lot more than maximizing potential of the over-achievers.

[MadImmortalMan]

I think economic equality goes a long way with such things, as it does with most social ills.  Eliminating fail cases benefits the society a lot more than maximizing potential of the over-achievers.

Honestly, I think you're wrong on both counts. The first is a case of correlation not causation. Being poor doesn't make kids do badly in school. Having shitty parents makes a kid more likely to be poor and also do badly in school. The second is a matter which cannot be divorced from subjectivity, but I'd always err on the side of maximizing potential whenever possible. That cannot be an absolute, however.

[Razgovory]

Really?  Are you familiar with Karen Lewis??

Let me guess, you're very well-versed in the subject of Karen Lewis ever since some retard blogs informed you a couple of days ago with everything you need to know about her.

Eh, no.  I watched a couple videos of her speaking.

Oooh, were they doctored videos like from that Breitbart site?

[derspiess]

Oooh, were they doctored videos like from that Breitbart site?

And you ask me why I say you're fixated on Breitbart

No, Raz.  They were actually from local Chicago news sites.  Believe me, this gal doesn't need any doctoring to appear outrageous.

[Phillip V]

Yeah, I can see why your country is going downhill so fast.

Can't attact good teachers anymore - lets cut their salaries and make their life a living hell - yep that ought to do nicely.

There are plenty of good teachers.

The problem is that we also attract many bad teachers. And keep them.

That alone will make good teachers leave or become disillusioned, regardless of pay. This theme of 'A' players vs 'C', 'D', 'F' players applies to any organization or business.

[Admiral Yi]

It would be a reasonable proposition to increase teacher salaries in order to attract better people to the profession.  The problem though is that proposal is never linked to tossing out all the current teachers.

As to measuring performance based on test results, my understanding is that those systems look at year-on-year improvements, not gross scores.  I don't see the problem there.

[Barrister]

It would be a reasonable proposition to increase teacher salaries in order to attract better people to the profession.  The problem though is that proposal is never linked to tossing out all the current teachers.

As to measuring performance based on test results, my understanding is that those systems look at year-on-year improvements, not gross scores.  I don't see the problem there.

I dunno - I know lots of people who would love to be teachers, but are having trouble finding a job.

Sounds like on the supply / demand curve, supply is outstripping demand.  Hard to argue we need to raise their salaries.

[garbon]

As to measuring performance based on test results, my understanding is that those systems look at year-on-year improvements, not gross scores.  I don't see the problem there.

Perhaps if scores were driven strictly by teacher effort.