25 years old and deep in debt

[crazy canuck]

If he has a job lined up and a plan to manage the debt then good on him. 

If that is the critieria then nobody should ever go into debt for their education.  Unless they are some kind of Mitt Romney clone and know going in that they have a job lined up.

[Legbiter]

Who benefits from this?

The Robber Baron universities presumably.

[Valmy]

If that is the critieria then nobody should ever go into debt for their education.

Over 100 thousand dollars in debt?  Yes.  But that is just common sense.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Even if Garbo sees no future for people educated in something less than Ivy league schools.

Seriously?

Remmeber, making up stupid shit and claiming someone else said it is a Languish staple.

[crazy canuck]

If there's no discernible difference between going to a cheaper state school and a non-Ivy-level private school, why are there so many expensive private schools? And why is the system set up to allow young people to take on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to get a degree that's no better than one they can get at 1/5th the price? If it's so obviously a foolish choice, why does the system mislead so many people into make such foolish choices? Who benefits from this?

Why are there market forces that allow so many private expensive private schools to thrive?  The hope parents and students have that paying for that education will give them a better future.  The system you are referring to is called capitalism.  It is set up so that profits can be maximized.

The system does not mislead people.  People can make the bet Malthus referred to that it will work out.  Imo it is a bad bet and there are better choices to make.  That that does not make their decision foolish - they are just more risk tolerant than I am.

[crazy canuck]

If that is the critieria then nobody should ever go into debt for their education.

Over 100 thousand dollars in debt?  Yes.  But that is just common sense.

Really.  If someone going into medical school knows they are going to be 100k in debt (at minimum) they should not start their education unless they have a job already lined up?  I dont think that is really what you mean.

[Jacob]

That that does not make their decision foolish - they are just more risk tolerant than I am.

Alternately, they are under-educated about the risks and are making uninformed decisions.

[Valmy]

Really.  If someone going into medical school knows they are going to be 100k in debt (at minimum) they should not start their education unless they have a job already lined up?  I dont think that is really what you mean.

No I do not mean that of course.  If you are getting your degree from medical school you know you are going to have a job, maybe not a super amazing job, but at least a job with enough earning power to manage your debt.  In getting any degree you are going into debt for you need to be working on lining up your employment.  I meant, in Fate's case, that he had his job lined up before graduation because he knew his degree would provide him with that chance.  I never at any time said you need to have a job lined up before you even start school.

[Jacob]

BTW CC, do you prefer the Canadian post-secondary setup or the American one?

[Jacob]

I'm a little confused by your arguments, CC.

On one hand you seem to be saying that people who end up in educational debt with little to show for it except a degree knowingly took a risk, their gamble didn't pay out, and now they're living with the consequences; this is called capitalism. It seemed to me that you think that's fine?

On the other hand, you're also dismissing the notion that you should make your educational choices purely based on your career prospects once you're done.*

I'm not sure how to square those two positions. Did I misunderstand something?

--------
*as an aside, I'm with you there; and even if you do do that, it doesn't solve the problem of people who make decisions based on the wrong information or those who get caught out when the job market shifts, like the indebted American graduates from various law programs whose numbers apparently outnumber the available jobs by an order of magnitude or more.

[Valmy]

On the other hand, you're also dismissing the notion that you should make your educational choices purely based on your career prospects once you're done.*

Just to clarify I don't think so either.  Just that it should be a consideration or you may ruin your life without meaning to.  The system can really screw you if you are not careful, particularly in situations where you are taking on six figures of debt.  In situations where you are taking on that sort of financial burden I do think it should be the primary, if not only, consideration.  Tuition is ridicously high for anybody who doesn't have a state subsidized (by being instate at a state school) or sponsored in some way so while before you could perhaps take a more easy going attitude towards education today that can be a disaster that can haunt you for the next 20+ years.

[Jacob]

Just that it should be a consideration or you may ruin your life without meaning to.  The system can really screw you if you are not careful, particularly in situations where you are taking on six figures of debt.  In situations where you are taking on that sort of financial burden I do think it should be the primary, if not only, consideration.  Tuition is ridicously high for anybody who doesn't have a state subsidized (by being instate at a state school) or sponsored in some way so while before you could perhaps take a more easy going attitude towards education today that can be a disaster that can haunt you for the next 20+ years.

Yeah.

I expect that the next generation of students in the US may learn that lesson (from the abundant examples we see today), and I suspect that for the previous generation that trap didn't really exist (harder to get to university, lower costs, and better prospects upon graduation).

It's the current generation that seems to have gotten themselves fucked from the lack of examples to avoid (previously, few people fucked their futures over by getting as much education as they could) and the presence to the trap.

[crazy canuck]

That that does not make their decision foolish - they are just more risk tolerant than I am.

Alternately, they are under-educated about the risks and are making uninformed decisions.

Only if you assume that they are making poor decisions.  Again that is very much a judgment coloured by your own experiences, values etc.  It is much like Garbons overgeneralization that people who dont go to top ranked skills have no hope.

[crazy canuck]

Really.  If someone going into medical school knows they are going to be 100k in debt (at minimum) they should not start their education unless they have a job already lined up?  I dont think that is really what you mean.

No I do not mean that of course.  If you are getting your degree from medical school you know you are going to have a job, maybe not a super amazing job, but at least a job with enough earning power to manage your debt.  In getting any degree you are going into debt for you need to be working on lining up your employment.  I meant, in Fate's case, that he had his job lined up before graduation because he knew his degree would provide him with that chance.  I never at any time said you need to have a job lined up before you even start school.

But most people entering into professional schools have no guarrantee that they will end up with a job that will justify the debt they have taken.  That is the gamble.  All medical students do not end up with well paying jobs.  Not all of them even end up practising medicine.  Some people even fail at the point they enter resident programs - it is rare but it happens.  And of the ones that dont fail very few end up where they want to be doing what they want to do.

Your notion that it is just common sense to have things lined up before one goes heavily into education related debt simply isnt practical for many many students.  It is a gamble.  If any facutly was a sure thing please let me know so I can point my kids in that direction. 

[Phillip V]

Just that it should be a consideration or you may ruin your life without meaning to.  The system can really screw you if you are not careful, particularly in situations where you are taking on six figures of debt.  In situations where you are taking on that sort of financial burden I do think it should be the primary, if not only, consideration.  Tuition is ridicously high for anybody who doesn't have a state subsidized (by being instate at a state school) or sponsored in some way so while before you could perhaps take a more easy going attitude towards education today that can be a disaster that can haunt you for the next 20+ years.

Yeah.

I expect that the next generation of students in the US may learn that lesson (from the abundant examples we see today), and I suspect that for the previous generation that trap didn't really exist (harder to get to university, lower costs, and better prospects upon graduation).

It's the current generation that seems to have gotten themselves fucked from the lack of examples to avoid (previously, few people fucked their futures over by getting as much education as they could) and the presence to the trap.

Sure, they will eventually "learn the lesson", but then us "entrepreneurs" (perhaps in collusion with government, finance, and industry players) will set up the next trap for new future "lessons".

Also, nobody here has mentioned the military as an avenue towards professional work experience, technical certifications, and free education. Though, it is now entering a period of force contraction, but there are still opportunities.