25 years old and deep in debt

[Malthus]

Indulging in learning for the sake of learning when you have free tuition doesn't qualify as stupid to me.

Well yeah but a useless degree is a useless degree even if you didn't pay for it.  I still remember the shock I got when graduating. I had been totally, willfully blind to the fact I had nothing whatsoever lined up - all I had were applications to graduate school, and even then I knew that was a pathetic excuse for a plan. I went back to working in the pottery studeo.

At that point the sensible part of my mind rebelled. 

[crazy canuck]

Plus lots of people don't plan their life around their career. Lots of people do masters and phds and all that because they love the subject and want to learn more. Or they can't face the real world and want to put it off as long as possible

There are indeed lots of people who do that.  I call them stupid people.

I call them highly successful.  It is only you government worker types and mono cubicle dwellers who had their whole life plotted out at the age of 2.  One of the richest me I know (and he is very very rich) didnt stumble upon what made his millions until life took him in a very different direction from where he thought he would end up.

University eduction should not be about following a plan.  People at that age do not have the experience, knowledge or foresight to figure that out - some people never do.  University is supposed to be a place where you get exposed to a number of different things to help you decide what you want to do.

The cost of university now makes that sort of experience much more risky as Malthus pointed out early on.

[Barrister]

Plus lots of people don't plan their life around their career. Lots of people do masters and phds and all that because they love the subject and want to learn more. Or they can't face the real world and want to put it off as long as possible

There are indeed lots of people who do that.  I call them stupid people.

I call them highly successful.  It is only you government worker types and mono cubicle dwellers who had their whole life plotted out at the age of 2.  One of the richest me I know (and he is very very rich) didnt stumble upon what made his millions until life took him in a very different direction from where he thought he would end up.

University eduction should not be about following a plan.  People at that age do not have the experience, knowledge or foresight to figure that out - some people never do.  University is supposed to be a place where you get exposed to a number of different things to help you decide what you want to do.

The cost of university now makes that sort of experience much more risky as Malthus pointed out early on.

There's a difference between having a plan, and then having that plan and sticking with it no matter what.

You should absolutely go to university with some plan or idea for the future.  Hell maybe that plan is "get an anthropology degree because it won't cost me anything, then figure things out".  But to rack up $100k+ in debts while having no idea how you'll pay it off is staggeringly foolish.

Don't forget my career didn't go according to plan either.  If I had followed my plan I'd still be at Malthus' firm (or one like it) doing securities work. 

[Admiral Yi]

IIRC if you still have a balance left after 25 years (?) that balance is forgiven.

The balance is not forgiven completely.  You no longer owe the money to the Dept. of Ed., but Ed declares the final unpaid balance to the IRS as income in that year.  So you then owe the IRS taxes on the balance.

[Fate]

I have $126,000 in student loans to date and I have to take out another 45 grand for my final year. At least I'll start earning a paycheck soon. 

[MadImmortalMan]

But if I was graduating high school today, in 2012, what else are your options? 

If I were graduating high school today, my plan would be:

1: Watch a metric fuckton of Khan Academy videos.

2: Take CLEP tests for college credit.

3: Finish out the remainder of whatever I might need at whichever school accepts the highest percentage of my accumulated credits toward my degree of choice.

I'm fairly sure I could get almost all of it done at next to no cost that way.

[Malthus]

But if I was graduating high school today, in 2012, what else are your options? 

Surely it cannot be the case that the only reasonable option for clever, articulate young people these days is ... to become a lawyer?  I mean, I love my profession and all ...

[Jacob]

I dunno man.  I was pretty cautious about accumulating student debt, and graduated with maybe 5% of her debt (with two degrees!).  IT not exactlt rocket science to know that owing $200k is very, very bad.

What were your tuition fees? $500/semester? $3000/semester?

[derspiess]

But if I was graduating high school today, in 2012, what else are your options? 

If I were graduating high school today, my plan would be:

1: Watch a metric fuckton of Khan Academy videos.

2: Take CLEP tests for college credit.

3: Finish out the remainder of whatever I might need at whichever school accepts the highest percentage of my accumulated credits toward my degree of choice.

I'm fairly sure I could get almost all of it done at next to no cost that way.

I was going to do the CLEP thing but soon realized that those would be my easy A classes. 

[Jacob]

Personally, I think it's a pretty big issue for the US.

It looks like a significant number of young people are coming out of university with huge debt, no prospects, and little hope. These are the people who're supposed to be building the future of the country.

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

[MadImmortalMan]

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

You're obviously right about that. If it's going to make you successful, then making the huge investment of getting those loans makes perfect sense. These kids are expecting that payoff to be bigger than the debt. But it isn't.

It's not their fault they think that way. They grow up hearing that the only way to succeed is to get a good education, and so they go get a good education expecting to be successful. It's what's expected of them. Everyone around them puts pressure on them to do it their whole lives. Our politicians are constantly drumming on it and telling us that the path to prosperity is through investing in education. Which it is. But that only goes so far.

Unfortunately, we've reached the wrong end of the bell curve there. We have too many people with degrees as it is. So much so that jobs that should not require degrees are requiring them. And I don't mean a little bit. I'd say a majority of the jobs out there which require degrees should not require them. We have schools offering 4-year degree programs in masonry, carpentry and welding.

Now, we're in a situation where all the available jobs require them and we don't have enough people with them. So what should we do? More education for everyone! It's a self-feeding machine.

So degree mills are churning, drinking down cash in federal loans to students that the students have to pay later but the schools get to pocket that cash now. The money is easy to get, and plentiful, so tuition goes up. Tuition goes up, people demand more money for education. Now tuition goes up some more. Another self-feeding machine.

[crazy canuck]

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

As others have pointed out, she attended a private university which is much more expensive than other alternatives.  I think Malthus said it best when he compared the choice to go to an expensive top rated school vs a less expensive school as a kind of gamble.

[garbon]

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

As others have pointed out, she attended a private university which is much more expensive than other alternatives.  I think Malthus said it best when he compared the choice to go to an expensive top rated school vs a less expensive school as a kind of gamble.

But as Jacob kinda said and I spoke to anecdotally earlier, the kids that go to the cheaper schools don't seem to have much hope either.  After all, employers still often like to select those that went to better schools - so on average you get a kid who spent 4 years at a cheap school who then finds himself without many appealing job prospects.

[crazy canuck]

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

As others have pointed out, she attended a private university which is much more expensive than other alternatives.  I think Malthus said it best when he compared the choice to go to an expensive top rated school vs a less expensive school as a kind of gamble.

But as Jacob kinda said and I spoke to anecdotally earlier, the kids that go to the cheaper schools don't seem to have much hope either. After all, employers still often like to select those that went to better schools - so on average you get a kid who spent 4 years at a cheap school who then finds himself without many appealing job prospects.

That is a different argument.  Jacob's point was that high debt loads was a systemic problem.  It is a problem of high cost institutions but I dont know that it is systemic across all insitutions.

Your argument is that education is worthless anyway which I am also doubtful is correct.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Personally, I think it's a pretty big issue for the US.

It looks like a significant number of young people are coming out of university with huge debt, no prospects, and little hope. These are the people who're supposed to be building the future of the country.

I mean, sure, it's satisfying to blame individuals for their foolish choices, but when the numbers are that high I think it indicates a systemic issue. What's going on that so many people make such bad choices? It seems like that might be worth addressing.

Nobody sits them down and says, "After five years your monthly payment will be $$, and rent in this area is around $$$, so between loan payments and normal cost of living you should plan on making around $$$$ per month."