Gentlemen - What emasculates you?

[Razgovory]

A "bit"?  This is has always been the fatal flaw of feminism.  The lack of respect for how an individual woman wants to live.  Advocating the equal rights for women is good, but they also have a preconcivied notion of how a woman should live, not just how a woman should be free to live.

I remember when my mom was running for state Senate.  Some people from NOW were interested in giving her cash.  They lost all interest when they found out she was a stay at home mom.  Didn't fit the mode.  They just don't respect that "choice".

There are different kinds of feminists. The equality types mostly don't have your fatal flaw I think.

Well the NOW ones did.  I was thinking of the second wave feminists.  The first wave are mostly dead.

[DGuller]

I think the reason feminists feel threatened by stay-at-home moms is because individual actions create social expectations.  If most women choose to stay at home, then those that don't are out of step with the mainstream.  It's the same concept that explains why workers who choose to work during a strike need to have their legs broken and their house fire-bombed.

[Jacob]

There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

[garbon]

A "bit"?  This is has always been the fatal flaw of feminism.  The lack of respect for how an individual woman wants to live.  Advocating the equal rights for women is good, but they also have a preconcivied notion of how a woman should live, not just how a woman should be free to live.

I remember when my mom was running for state Senate.  Some people from NOW were interested in giving her cash.  They lost all interest when they found out she was a stay at home mom.  Didn't fit the mode.  They just don't respect that "choice".

There are different kinds of feminists. The equality types mostly don't have your fatal flaw I think.

Well the NOW ones did.  I was thinking of the second wave feminists.  The first wave are mostly dead.

Again though the issue here is teasing out who really has cognizantly/happily made a choice and those who just sort of conformed out of ignorance/apathy/lack of vigor. A good example of this is in that ridiculous movie Mona Lisa Smile where Julia Roberts is exasperated by what she doesn't feel is really Kirsten Dunst's choice. The movie, of course, portrays Kirsten as someone who wasn't really able to make a free choice.

[garbon]

There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

Yep. Free choices aren't always so free.

[Razgovory]

I think the reason feminists feel threatened by stay-at-home moms is because individual actions create social expectations.  If most women choose to stay at home, then those that don't are out of step with the mainstream.  It's the same concept that explains why workers who choose to work during a strike need to have their legs broken and their house fire-bombed.

Bad example.  Workers don't like scabs because scabs hurt them financially and possibly physically.

[Neil]

Physically?  Scabs don't try and murder union trash.  Quite the opposite.

[Razgovory]

Physically?  Scabs don't try and murder union trash.  Quite the opposite.

If the workers are striking for better working conditions and the scabs break the strike then the workers may have to go back to the dangerous conditions and possibly suffer physical injury or even death that could have been prevented by a successful strike.

[merithyn]

There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

Exactly.

[merithyn]

Bad example.  Workers don't like scabs because scabs hurt them financially and possibly physically.

I'm not so sure. That kind of pressure can seriously undermine any possibility of making different choices, which can hurt a person financially, though not likely to be physically. Pressuring someone to stay home and not build a career so the other can could very obviously financially injure the one who stayed home.

[Razgovory]

So you'd want to use social pressure to make people behave the way you want, rather then risk other people making you feel bad about your choices?

[HVC]

So when a choice is made and it goes with perceived societal norms it isn't really a choice at all and it's ok to denigrate that decision? Gotcha. So next time Marti goes on a tirade against "the breeders" for having kids because societies deems it a norm you'll all rally to his cause?

[HVC]

btw is the stay at home home is still the societal norm to achieve? I get the impression that the "I can have it all woman" is the societal norm now? But I can readily admit that I'm reading the situation wrong.

[merithyn]

So you'd want to use social pressure to make people behave the way you want, rather then risk other people making you feel bad about your choices?

People are welcome to make their own choices however they see fit. That doesn't mean, however, that we all have to agree with those choices. Nor does it mean that there won't be discussion about it.

As for your assertion that I'm a bad kind of feminist, you're not paying attention. I disagree with that way of living because I believe that it's inherently disrespectful to BOTH genders, unless special care is taken to avoid it.

[merithyn]

So when a choice is made and it goes with perceived societal norms it isn't really a choice at all and it's ok to denigrate that decision? Gotcha. So next time Marti goes on a tirade against "the breeders" for having kids because societies deems it a norm you'll all rally to his cause?

I'm pretty sure no one said that. I think what was said is that there is that concern, and special care should be taken to avoid it.