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Gentlemen - What emasculates you?

Started by merithyn, July 18, 2012, 11:40:46 AM

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Razgovory

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 19, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2012, 05:01:32 PM
A "bit"?  This is has always been the fatal flaw of feminism.  The lack of respect for how an individual woman wants to live.  Advocating the equal rights for women is good, but they also have a preconcivied notion of how a woman should live, not just how a woman should be free to live.

I remember when my mom was running for state Senate.  Some people from NOW were interested in giving her cash.  They lost all interest when they found out she was a stay at home mom.  Didn't fit the mode.  They just don't respect that "choice".

There are different kinds of feminists. The equality types mostly don't have your fatal flaw I think.

Well the NOW ones did.  I was thinking of the second wave feminists.  The first wave are mostly dead.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

DGuller

I think the reason feminists feel threatened by stay-at-home moms is because individual actions create social expectations.  If most women choose to stay at home, then those that don't are out of step with the mainstream.  It's the same concept that explains why workers who choose to work during a strike need to have their legs broken and their house fire-bombed.

Jacob

There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

garbon

Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2012, 05:09:26 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on July 19, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2012, 05:01:32 PM
A "bit"?  This is has always been the fatal flaw of feminism.  The lack of respect for how an individual woman wants to live.  Advocating the equal rights for women is good, but they also have a preconcivied notion of how a woman should live, not just how a woman should be free to live.

I remember when my mom was running for state Senate.  Some people from NOW were interested in giving her cash.  They lost all interest when they found out she was a stay at home mom.  Didn't fit the mode.  They just don't respect that "choice".

There are different kinds of feminists. The equality types mostly don't have your fatal flaw I think.

Well the NOW ones did.  I was thinking of the second wave feminists.  The first wave are mostly dead.

Again though the issue here is teasing out who really has cognizantly/happily made a choice and those who just sort of conformed out of ignorance/apathy/lack of vigor. A good example of this is in that ridiculous movie Mona Lisa Smile where Julia Roberts is exasperated by what she doesn't feel is really Kirsten Dunst's choice. The movie, of course, portrays Kirsten as someone who wasn't really able to make a free choice.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2012, 05:14:56 PM
There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

Yep. Free choices aren't always so free. :yes:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: DGuller on July 19, 2012, 05:10:02 PM
I think the reason feminists feel threatened by stay-at-home moms is because individual actions create social expectations.  If most women choose to stay at home, then those that don't are out of step with the mainstream.  It's the same concept that explains why workers who choose to work during a strike need to have their legs broken and their house fire-bombed.

Bad example.  Workers don't like scabs because scabs hurt them financially and possibly physically.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Neil

Physically?  Scabs don't try and murder union trash.  Quite the opposite.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Razgovory

Quote from: Neil on July 19, 2012, 05:29:36 PM
Physically?  Scabs don't try and murder union trash.  Quite the opposite.

If the workers are striking for better working conditions and the scabs break the strike then the workers may have to go back to the dangerous conditions and possibly suffer physical injury or even death that could have been prevented by a successful strike.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

merithyn

Quote from: Jacob on July 19, 2012, 05:14:56 PM
There's also the thing that individual choice is not free from social pressure.

It's great that individuals make the choices that suit them, but if large number of people make individual choices of a particular kind that's good evidence that there's social pressure that pushes them in that direction.

And if you think that social pressure is not a good thing, that's cause for concern. Yes, it's a delicate thing to find the right path to alleviate the social pressure without infringing on individual choice, but to just throw your hands up and say "there's no problem because of FREEDOM!" is pretty weak.

Exactly.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

merithyn

Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2012, 05:18:47 PM
Bad example.  Workers don't like scabs because scabs hurt them financially and possibly physically.

I'm not so sure. That kind of pressure can seriously undermine any possibility of making different choices, which can hurt a person financially, though not likely to be physically. Pressuring someone to stay home and not build a career so the other can could very obviously financially injure the one who stayed home.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

Razgovory

So you'd want to use social pressure to make people behave the way you want, rather then risk other people making you feel bad about your choices?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

HVC

So when a choice is made and it goes with perceived societal norms it isn't really a choice at all and it's ok to denigrate that decision? Gotcha. So next time Marti goes on a tirade against "the breeders" for having kids because societies deems it a norm you'll all rally to his cause?
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

HVC

btw is the stay at home home is still the societal norm to achieve? I get the impression that the "I can have it all woman" is the societal norm now? But I can readily admit that I'm reading the situation wrong.
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

merithyn

Quote from: Razgovory on July 19, 2012, 05:42:41 PM
So you'd want to use social pressure to make people behave the way you want, rather then risk other people making you feel bad about your choices?

People are welcome to make their own choices however they see fit. That doesn't mean, however, that we all have to agree with those choices. Nor does it mean that there won't be discussion about it.

As for your assertion that I'm a bad kind of feminist, you're not paying attention. I disagree with that way of living because I believe that it's inherently disrespectful to BOTH genders, unless special care is taken to avoid it.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

merithyn

Quote from: HVC on July 19, 2012, 05:48:07 PM
So when a choice is made and it goes with perceived societal norms it isn't really a choice at all and it's ok to denigrate that decision? Gotcha. So next time Marti goes on a tirade against "the breeders" for having kids because societies deems it a norm you'll all rally to his cause?

I'm pretty sure no one said that. I think what was said is that there is that concern, and special care should be taken to avoid it.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...