Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[Berkut]

I am kind of amazed that anyone would argue that this scenario is a fine, fine idea:

I get a gun.
I go to the local bar.
I wait outside till someone comes out, then I punch them in the face.
When they punch me back, I pull out my gun and blow them away.

ZOMG I WAS STANDING MY GROUND OCCIFER! SEE, LOOK AT THIS HERE BRUISE!

Yep, definitely a bruise. No way we can convict him now, have a nice day!

Does the person in question actually have to fear for their life in some kind of rational or reasonable fashion? What was this dickheads "fear for his life" that justified his shooting that kid? Was he afraid the kid was actually going to beat him to death with his bag of skittles?

That is horseshit. This guy was never in fear for his life, he went out looking for a chance to shoot someone.

[Eddie Teach]

Want to send him home fast?

"Hey kid, just an FYI:  she's a fantastic kisser."  *wink, nudge*

Creepy CDM is a hoot. 

[Martinus]

It simply seems more reasonable on its face that this guy caused the confrontation and was not acting in legitimate self-defence when a large and armed man with an attraction to acting as a local vigilante chases down (contrary to 911 instructions), and then guns down, a kid out to buy Skittles*.

The two conclusions are not mutually exclusive.  It could be that Zimmerman caused the confrontation to occur by following Martin but yet still acted in self-defense when Martin reacted by using deadly force (not saying this did happen just that it could have).  And the question is not which scenario is more likely but whether there is some reasonable basis to believe the Zimmerman story.

Under Polish criminal law if you start a confrontation like this, you are not lawfully allowed to then escalate by using deadly force in self defense if the response you provoked was on par with your original assault.

If you punch someone and they punch you back and then you pull out a gun to shoot them, there is no fucking way you would be regarded as acting in self defense.

[The Brain]

Yes but in America, where grownups make the laws, things are a bit different.

[Martinus]

I wish Ohio had a stand your ground law. I could have shot those teenagers down in the parking lot of a dollar store. 

[Martinus]

Yes but in America, where grownups make the laws, things are a bit different.

What would be the position in Sweden?

[Eddie Teach]

What would be the position in Sweden?

Life imprisonment for gun owners.

[The Brain]

Yes but in America, where grownups make the laws, things are a bit different.

What would be the position in Sweden?

Well there's two conflicting Swedish principles at work. On the one hand self defense is pretty much a dirty word in Swedish law but on the other hand murderers hardly get any jail time.

[Razgovory]

Another case with the same law.

As critics assail Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law in the wake of the killing of an unarmed Miami Gardens teen in Sanford, a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death.

Greyston Garcia was charged with second-degree murder in the slaying of Pedro Roteta, 26, whom he chased for more than a block before stabbing the man.

The case illustrates the difficulty police and prosecutors statewide have experienced since the 2005 law eliminated a citizen's duty to retreat in the face of danger, putting the burden on a judge, not a jury, to decide whether the accused is immune from prosecution.

In Sanford, police have cited the Stand Your Ground law in their decision not to arrest a neighborhood watch volunteer in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, 17. A Seminole County grand jury will decide on whether the man who shot Trayvon, George Zimmerman, 28, should face homicide charges.

Miami police Sgt. Ervens Ford, who supervised the Garcia case, was floored when told Wednesday of the judge's decision. Ford called the law and the decision by Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Beth Bloom a "travesty of justice."

"How can it be Stand Your Ground?" said Ford, a longtime homicide investigator who on his off-day on Monday plans to attend a rally in the Trayvon case in Sanford with his two teenage sons. "It's on [surveillance] video! You can see him stabbing the victim . . ."

Bloom granted Garcia, 25, immunity under the 2005 law after she decided that his testimony about self-defense was credible. The judge did not issue a written ruling, but is expected to do so in the next few days.

The Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office is likely to appeal the judge's ruling. Garcia's defense attorney could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

The 2005 law eliminated a citizen's duty to retreat when attacked, leading critics to say the statute fosters vigilante justice and allows criminals to get away with murder on a claim of self-defense.

The law also bestowed immunity from prosecution and civil suits on people who are deemed to have acted in self-defense. The Florida Supreme Court has said that the question of whether the immunity applies in each case should be decided by a judge, not a jury.

"Self-defense should be decided by a jury," Miami-Dade Chief Assistant State Attorney Kathleen Hoague, who trains prosecutors on the law, said after Wednesday's ruling. "To us, that's the flaw in the law."

The incident took place on Jan. 25, when Roteta and another youth were behind Garcia's apartment at 201 SW 18th Ct. According to police, Roteta was stealing Garcia's truck radio.

Garcia, alerted by a roommate, grabbed a large knife and ran downstairs. He chased Roteta, then stabbed him in a confrontation that lasted less than a minute, according to court documents.

The stabbing was caught on video. Roteta was carrying a bag filled with three stolen radios, but no weapon other than a pocketknife, which was unopened in his pocket and which police said he never brandished.

After initially denying involvement in the man's death, Garcia admitted to homicide detectives that he attacked Roteta even though "he actually never saw a weapon."

Garcia claimed Roteta made a move that he interpreted as a move to stab him — so he struck first.

Prosecutors and police have argued since the Stand Your Ground law passed that it would give vigilantes free rein to strike first and ask questions later.

In the Garcia case, prosecutors argued that the law did not apply because the truck was not "occupied" and the suspected burglar had run away.

Once Roteta ran off, prosecutor Jennie Conklin wrote in a motion, Garcia "no longer needed to use deadly force to protect his home or unoccupied vehicle."

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789/miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789/miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html#storylink=cpy

Guy breaks into your car, you can chase him across the neighborhood and stab him to death.  You can even lie to the police about it afterwords!  Jesus Christ.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Perhaps Florida will see an influx of "murder tourists" in the future.

[11B4V]

Perhaps Florida will see an influx of "murder tourists" in the future.

Great idea for another reality TV show.

[Ed Anger]

Perhaps Florida will see an influx of "murder tourists" in the future.

My balls will get too sweaty and the traffic sucks.

[HisMajestyBOB]

Perhaps Florida will see an influx of "murder tourists" in the future.

Great idea for another reality TV show.

Or a 1980s movie starring Kurt Russell.

[Neil]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

Believe it or not, allowing the citizenry to slaughter each other in order to create an atmosphere of fear isn't a bedrock principle of conservatism.

I don't know;  since this law was passed, homicides ruled as justifiable homicides in the state of Florida have tripled.  So maybe it is.

That's not conservatism.  That's the American frontier myth at work.

[derspiess]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

Believe it or not, allowing the citizenry to slaughter each other in order to create an atmosphere of fear isn't a bedrock principle of conservatism.

I don't know;  since this law was passed, homicides ruled as justifiable homicides in the state of Florida have tripled.  So maybe it is.

Wow, those raw numbers must be astronomical.  Any idea what they are?  Thousands?  Tens of thousands?