Trayvon Martin case: use of Stand Your Ground law or pursuit of a black teen?

[Valmy]

I always thought Conservatives were supposed to be tough on criminals not make laws enabling them to literally get away with murder.

[derspiess]

I always thought Conservatives were supposed to be tough on criminals not make laws enabling them to literally get away with murder.

If it's truly murder, yeah.

[Neil]

I always thought Conservatives were supposed to be tough on criminals not make laws enabling them to literally get away with murder.

It's double-edged.  On the one hand, they're allowing what might previously have been considered to be a murder to go unpunished, which could be bad (depending on your view of self-defence).  On the other hand, they're allowing citizens to slaughter petty criminals (who should definitely be killed, but it might not be a good idea to allow citizens themselves to do it).

[CountDeMoney]

I fail to see the societal benefit in making it easier for citizens to blow away other citizens.

"Conservatives"

Believe it or not, allowing the citizenry to slaughter each other in order to create an atmosphere of fear isn't a bedrock principle of conservatism.

I don't know;  since this law was passed, homicides ruled as justifiable homicides in the state of Florida have tripled.  So maybe it is.

Wow, those raw numbers must be astronomical.  Any idea what they are?  Thousands?  Tens of thousands?

You wish, Wyatt Earp.

[Valmy]

If it's truly murder, yeah.

Eh if I was going to plan to commit a murder I pretty much have the blueprint here: force an altercation and provoke an attack (it seems just a fistfight if sufficient) and then I can legally commit homicide.

[CountDeMoney]

Article from the pre-Trayvon Martin days:

Justifiable homicides rise in Palm Beach County
By Julius Whigham II
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Posted: 7:54 p.m. Monday, Jan. 16, 2012


As a West Palm Beach home­owner confronted two intruders in March, the encounter turned deadly. One intruder was shot and killed.

Weeks later, two men were fatally shot in a dispute aboard a boat near Phil Foster Park in Riviera Beach. Initially charged with murder, the boat's owner, 65-year-old Michael Monahan, was later set free after a judge cited the state's controversial "Stand Your Ground" statute.

And in July, 19-year-old James Fritz was killed after he allegedly broke into a Green­acres home and charged at the homeowner with knives.

Though Palm Beach County's overall homicide rate continued to decline in 2011, authorities say justifiable homi­cides increased.

"There definitely was an increase in the Stand Your Ground claims in 2011," said Terri Skiles, chief of the Major Violent Crimes Division in the Palm Beach County State Attorney's Office.

Not counting three fatal shootings that involved officers, six of the county's 84 homicides last year were either determined to be justifiable or resulted in no charges against the alleged assailant. That is the highest number of justifiable homicides involving private citizens since the Stand Your Ground law went into effect in late 2005, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

There were four justifiable homicides involving private citizens in 2010, and three each in 2008 and 2009, FDLE statistics show.

Law enforcement officials caution that it's too soon to determine whether the increase reflects an emerging trend.

However, the Stand Your Ground law became a topic of contention in September when Circuit Judge Richard Oftedahl dismissed charges against Monahan in the shooting deaths of Raymond Mohlman, 49, and Matthew Vittum, 43. At issue was whether Monahan had reason to fear for his life. Neither man was armed and neither touched Mon­ahan.

The law says people who are attacked on their property have no duty to retreat and can meet force with deadly force to protect themselves.

Palm Beach County State Attorney Michael McAuliffe declined to discuss the judge's decision in the Monahan case, citing a pending appeal .

The county's top prosecutor expressed some concern, however, about how the law might affect investigations in specific circumstances. "The way the law is written, it has proved to be an impediment to certain situations that we believed, on the evidence, supported charges," he said.

The law's proponents say it has resulted in law enforcement investigators and prosecutors examining potential instances of justifiable force more thoroughly before pursuing charges.

"There's no question that law has certainly brought to light the fact that certain situations and certain circumstances, as tragic as they are, often are the product of justifiable shootings and killings, whether it be self-defense, Stand Your Ground or officer-related shootings," criminal defense attorney Michael Salnick said. "I think it goes to law enforcement's credit and to prosecutors who are doing the right thing in looking at the law before making a snap decision to charge someone."

In some situations, such as the Greenacres confrontation, investigators did not file charges. Police said Fritz charged at homeowner Joseph Wagner with knives on July 17 after breaking into the residence .

Fritz "was looking for blood," Wagner's son Joe told The Palm Beach Post in July. "We have guns for protection, and now we know why."

After a Dec. 29 incident in Royal Palm Beach, Palm Beach County sheriff's detectives determined that Damian Niemeyer fired his gun out of fear when he confronted a teen and two others who were allegedly trying to steal his motorcycle. Niemeyer, 37, told detectives that he fired his gun at them after one of the men pointed a gun at him while Niemeyer was shouting at them from his townhouse's second-floor bedroom window.

The shooting left 19-year-old Benjy Young of West Palm Beach dead on the townhouse complex's pavement.

Despite the spike in alleged justifiable homicides last year, the county's overall number continued to drop: There were 11 fewer killings in 2011 than in 2010. The total of 84 marked the third straight year that Palm Beach County had fewer than 100 homicides.

McAuliffe said he believes that efforts by law enforcement agencies and prosecutors to target gangs and repeat offenders have helped to reduce the violent crime rate.

"I think we've seen a stepping down of violent crime in general," McAuliffe said, "and I think homi­cides are probably part of that larger story."

Citing the recent arrests in the first murder case of 2012, the killing of Belle Glade grocer Jimmy McMillan, McAuliffe stressed that it's important for the community to play a role in bringing violent offenders to justice.

"In the future, the challenge we have is that many homicides depend on the community's cooperation to help solve and to hold the perpetrators accountable," he said. "You saw a perfect example of that play out (in the McMillan case)."

[Valmy]

Well once somebody breaks into your home, particularly if they are charging people with knives, I think they are pretty fair game.

[derspiess]

If it's truly murder, yeah.

Eh if I was going to plan to commit a murder I pretty much have the blueprint here: force an altercation and provoke an attack (it seems just a fistfight if sufficient) and then I can legally commit homicide.

So you think I consider that to be self-defense?

[CountDeMoney]

Tally of 'stand your ground' cases rises as legislators rethink law
By Ben Montgomery and Connie Humburg, Times Staff Writers
In Print: Friday, March 23, 2012

The controversial law that police have cited in their decision not to charge the man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has been invoked at least 130 times statewide since 2005.

A Tampa Bay Times survey, compiled from 31 Florida newspapers and public records, shows that the number of cases in which "stand your ground" has been invoked has climbed dramatically in the past year and a half. The analysis shows that police and prosecutors continue to apply the law unevenly.

As pressure mounts to charge George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who ignored police advice not to confront the unarmed teen on Feb. 26, Gov. Rick Scott announced he would convene a task force to study the law. No group keeps a tally of cases in which Florida Statute 776.013 (3) — commonly known as the "stand your ground" law — is invoked.

The law expands a citizen's right to use deadly force anywhere that he has a right to be if he "reasonably believes" it is necessary to stop another person from killing or hurting him badly.

The Times analysis shows that more than 70 percent of the 130 cases involved a fatality.

In the majority of the cases, the person who plunged the knife or swung the bat or pulled the trigger did not face a trial.

In 50 of the cases, the person who used force was never charged with a crime. Another nine defendants were granted immunity by a judge, and nine cases were dismissed.

In 10 cases, the defendant pleaded guilty to lesser crimes.

Of the 28 cases that made it to trial, 19 people were found guilty of a crime.

Twenty-two cases are still pending. (The outcomes of two could not be learned by press time.)

The Times analysis also shows that "stand your ground" is being invoked with greater frequency.

In the first five years the law was in effect, it was invoked 93 times. In the last year and a half, it has been invoked at least an additional 37 times.

"Justifiable homicides" reported to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement have increased threefold since the law went into effect.

Proponents say the law is working, allowing citizens to protect themselves from harm without worrying about legalities in the heat of the attack.

But the law has also been used to excuse killings in bar brawls, gang shootouts and road-rage incidents.

And if history serves, it's no wonder Zimmerman has not been arrested. Depending on how a police chief, prosecutor or judge interprets the law, which asks them to consider something as nebulous as a man's state of mind, they may find that under the law Zimmerman was justified in shooting young Martin.

At Wednesday's town hall meeting in Sanford, where more than 400 people sat inside the Allen Chapel AME Church and another 200 or more rallied outside, state Rep. Geraldine Thompson, D-Orlando, said repealing the "stand your ground" law would be a top priority for the Legislature's black caucus.

"What about Trayvon's right to stand his ground and defend himself?" she asked. "How do you claim self-defense when you're in an SUV and you pursue a person on foot? How did Trayvon provoke an attack when he was running away?"

The problem that often hamstrings police and prosecutors is that there are often no witnesses. Two people meet in the dark, one of them kills the other, and the narrative of what happened solely belongs to the person interested in staying out of jail, the analysis shows.

When Arthur Hayhoe, executive director of the Florida Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, heard about the Martin case, "I went to my files and yanked out all the ones like it," he said. "I found 15."

Among them was a 2010 incident in Town 'N Country in which a man on a jog about 1 a.m. was punched in the face by a teenager. The man thought he was being robbed so he pulled a gun, and the teen started to run. The man fired eight shots. Four hit the teen. The man was not charged with a crime. His court file says "justifiable homicide."

In the Tampa Bay area, the law has been invoked 31 times. Hills­borough County leads the state with 14 such cases.

Several cases have prompted much controversy, including an incident in which a man who stabbed another with an ice pick was cleared of wrongdoing and one in which a man who legally carried a gun to a neighborhood park to shoo away a skateboarder shot and killed a man who confronted him. That case is pending.

Police chiefs and prosecutors have decried the law for years, but it wasn't until the Martin shooting that notable Republicans, including the bill's author, Rep. Dennis Baxley, R-Ocala, have said the law may need to be reconsidered.

"As far as I'm concerned, that neighborhood watch guy was breaking that law as soon as he started following that kid. He was stalking him. That's not standing your ground," said Rep. Richard "Rich" Glorioso, R-Plant City, who voted for the bill. "If the law is applied right, it's a fine law. But we worried about how people would interpret it, and how it would be applied, when we were discussing it."

Therein lies the problem.

The analysis shows the law is being unevenly applied across the state. A case that's dropped in Tampa might make it to a jury trial in Miami.

Hayhoe said the Martin case shows a clear need for reconsideration.

He's surprised it hasn't happened earlier.

"Most of these cases don't go beyond the local paper," he said. The Martin case is different.

"There's been more dialogue in the last three days than we've gotten for seven years," he said.

[CountDeMoney]

Well once somebody breaks into your home, particularly if they are charging people with knives, I think they are pretty fair game.

Thanks for pointing out that one tree in the entire forest there, Ranger Rick.

[Valmy]

So you think I consider that to be self-defense?

Can you prove it wasn't in a court of law?

[Valmy]

Thanks for pointing out that one tree in the entire forest there, Ranger Rick.

Um  dude you put in an article where there were six cases and the first three mentioned all seemed to involve people being killed after they broke into somebody's property (though I am not clear on the boat incident).

[Razgovory]

If it's truly murder, yeah.

Eh if I was going to plan to commit a murder I pretty much have the blueprint here: force an altercation and provoke an attack (it seems just a fistfight if sufficient) and then I can legally commit homicide.

So you think I consider that to be self-defense?

If you tell the police that it is, that seems sufficient.  You can chase a guy down with a knife and stab him to death and that's considered self-defense.

[CountDeMoney]

So you think I consider that to be self-defense?

Can you prove it wasn't in a court of law?

If it doesn't make it to a court of law, what's the difference.

[CountDeMoney]

Thanks for pointing out that one tree in the entire forest there, Ranger Rick.

Um  dude you put in an article where there were six cases and the first three mentioned all seemed to involve people being killed after they broke into somebody's property (though I am not clear on the boat incident).

I'll remember that when I shoot you in the face for coming after me with a boat.