It can't get any worse than accidentally burning Korans, right? Right?

[Razgovory]

Afghans still haven't rioted over this.  Looks like burning children in a sack is a lesser crime then burning Korans.

[jimmy olsen]

Actually, Koran burning is much worse to Afghans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46742088/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/#.T2F-tXmb4wA

US-Afghan disconnect in reactions to two incidents
Muted reaction to mass killing compared to Koran burning surprises many Americans

By ROD NORDLAND
updated 1 hour 6 minutes ago

KABUL, Afghanistan — The mullah was astounded and a little angered to be asked why the accidental burning of Korans last month could provoke violence nationwide, while an intentional mass murder that included nine children last Sunday did not.

"How can you compare the dishonoring of the Holy Koran with the martyrdom of innocent civilians?" said an incredulous Mullah Khaliq Dad, a member of the council of religious leaders who investigated the Koran burnings. "The whole goal of our life is religion."

That many Americans are just as surprised that what appears to be the massacre of 16 people at the hands of an American soldier has not led to mass protests or revenge killings speaks volumes about a fundamental disconnect with their Afghan partners, one that has undermined a longstanding objective to win the hearts and minds of the population. After more than 10 years, many deaths and billions of dollars invested, Americans still fail to grasp the Afghans' basic values. Faith is paramount and a death can be compensated with blood money.

"To Muslims, and especially to Afghans, religion is much higher a concern than civilian or human casualties," said Hafez Abdul Qayoom, a member of Afghanistan's highest clerical body, the Ulema Council. "When something happens to their religion, they are much more sensitive and have much stronger reaction to it."

The attack by a still unidentified United States Army soldier near his base in the Panjwai district, in southern Kandahar Province, has certainly infuriated Afghans and added to already strained relations. But the anger has been more polemical than violent — at least so far.

"We have to hold our breath here — people are jumping too fast on this idea that Afghans don't care about 16 people being killed, compared to, say, the Koran-burning episode," said Haseeb Humayoon, a social scientist here who has studied the phenomenon of mass protests.

There have been delayed reactions to past foreign offenses, like when a Florida evangelist deliberately destroyed a Koran last year. And Friday Prayers, which often touch off mass protests, have yet to take place this week. Still, the contrast with the reaction to the Feb. 20 Koran burnings is striking. Within a day of the burnings, violent protests outside NATO bases broke out, and apologies from top officials did little to stem two weeks of violence that took at least 29 lives.

In the case of the massacre in Kandahar, prompt apologies and condemnations from not only Gen. John R. Allen, the commander of the international force, but also President Obama — along with quick action by local leaders — seemed to head off violence and contain the blowback.

In Kandahar, villagers at first wanted to take the bodies of their victims into the city, but elders persuaded them that displaying them to crowds would lead to mass violence, and they desisted. Instead, they expressed their anguish to top officials who rushed there from Kabul, and in phone calls with President Hamid Karzai. In Jalalabad, university students organized a demonstration, burning Mr. Obama and a Christian cross in effigy, but despite strident demands that the Americans leave, the protest remained peaceful and disbanded without incident.

Partly, many observers say, the Americans have had a lot of practice at apologizing for carnage, accidental and otherwise, and have gotten better at doing it quickly and convincingly.

"The statement coming from President Obama, saying the killing of Afghan children felt the same as if they were American children, was reported widely by the local press," Mr. Humayoon said. "Previously you would have a bland apology."

The Ulema Council, which is heavily influenced by the presidential palace, had immediately issued a passionate denunciation, saying of the Americans, "The human rights violators of the 21st century once more committed a wild, inhuman and shameful act and relentlessly martyred innocent children, women and men." But Mullah Qayoom said the quick reaction and prompt apology helped tamp down fury.

Afghan officials helped, too, by quickly paying compensation to the victims' relatives, who are very poor and are part of a culture where "blood money" is regularly paid for even accidental deaths. A high-level delegation brought the money on Tuesday to the village in Panjwai where the massacre happened, drawing an attack by Taliban insurgents.

Still, the speed of the official response does not explain everything. Military officials quickly apologized for the Koran burnings as well, but it seemed to do little to quiet matters.

Mullah Qayoom is surprised that anyone is surprised.

"Humans were sent here to worship and protect religion," he said. "That is what the purpose of a Muslim's life is."

Also, Afghans were very much aware that burning a Koran under American law normally would not be a crime, any more than burning a Bible would be — so those responsible were not going to suffer anything that Afghans would view as appropriate punishment.

In the case of murder, the military does have capital punishment, at least in theory — though no American soldier has ever been sentenced to death for acts committed in Afghanistan, including murders.

"In your laws there is the death penalty, so we are hopeful," Mullah Qayoom said. "With the Koran burning, your people do not even respect your own books, so in the end they will say 'sorry' and the person will be released."
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That Afghans find Koran desecration more distressing does not mean they have been indifferent to the murders, particularly of the children. By now, any Afghan with a computer has seen the victims' cherubic but lifeless visages on Facebook, and the images have been passed around on cellphones. Wrapped in blankets, some look as if they had just fallen asleep — the coverings hide gaping forehead wounds. A toddler in a blood-stained pinafore looks alive at first glance.

The Taliban certainly did their best to instigate a reaction to the Kandahar killings, issuing a broadside within hours calling on local residents to pour into the streets and attack NATO bases.

So far, at least, nothing of the sort has happened. Afghans are quick to recall a proverb: "You give your money away for your life, but you give your life away for your religion." Ahmad Nader Nadery, a human rights activist, said that when the heat of the moment settled, many Afghans would be ready to see the Kandahar massacre as the criminal act of a single individual, particularly because it did not come as part of a military operation.

Perhaps most important, however, is that civilian casualties have long since stopped being the particular province of foreign military forces, who were once responsible for 75 percent of them. Now the Taliban commit 75 percent of them, according to figures by the United Nations and Afghan rights groups. As one American military official said, "When have the Taliban ever apologized for killing?"

This story, "Disconnect clear in US bafflement over two Afghan responses", originally appeared in The New York Times.

[Razgovory]

I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up.  I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...

[Duque de Bragança]

Given the current geopolitical situation in the region, I have a feeling the last significant US and/or Nato troops will end up withdrawing over that exact same box girder bridge*.

Oh and the Krazy Karzi kleptocracy will collapse quicker that a throthing baptist at a snake fondling seance.



* Meanwhile the bridge will remain, perhaps awaiting the next occupiers ?

Let's see if Karzai holds as long as Najibullah and if he meets the same fate.

[Hansmeister]

I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up.  I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...

Welcome to my world.

[Zanza]

REPORTING FROM KABUL, AFGHANISTAN -- In twin blows to American efforts to wage war and negotiate peace in Afghanistan, President Hamid Karzai on Thursday demanded a quicker end to the Western combat mission and a pullback of NATO troops from rural areas, while the Taliban movement declared a suspension of dialogue with the United States.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/03/taliban-reject-talks-afghanistan-karzai-demands-western-pullback.html

We should withdraw within months, not years, if they don't want us there anymore.

[Tamas]

I imagine the massacre of villagers must be a fairly regular event in a land of tribal warfare.

[derspiess]

I imagine the massacre of villagers must be a fairly regular event in a land of tribal warfare.

If anything, the Taliban may be pissed that someone beat them to it.

[CountDeMoney]

many Afghans would be ready to see the Kandahar massacre as the criminal act of a single individual, particularly because it did not come as part of a military operation.

This.  Even Afghans recognize batshit crazy.

[Razgovory]

I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up.  I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...

Welcome to my world.

Maybe you shouldn't be working there then.  I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm not sure if I'm happy they aren't rioting and killing American soldiers, or unhappy that their priorities are just so fucked up.  I am confused by these new feelings of ... contempt...

Welcome to my world.

Maybe you shouldn't be working there then.  I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.

Knock it off, Raz.  It's Afghanistan.  Those fuckers--and Muslims in general--will never be figured out, as they are complete and total polar opposites to our Judeo-Christian, western liberal democratic traditions.  Might as well be working with Martians.

[Eddie Teach]

Maybe you shouldn't be working there then.  I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.

Eh, not sure respect for the subjects is that helpful when trying to manipulate large groups of people. I suspect many people in marketing and advertising are cynical assholes.

[KRonn]

Afghanistan still needs a century or so to be even somewhat compatible with the real world or with better government and way of life. Stoning women for getting raped, honor killings, killing someone for changing religions, killing for burning the Koran, killing gays, and more. They need to come out of the dark age they're in, do some reforms like every other culture, nation and religion has done, if they expect anything better for their lives. I had hoped they could be helped since they'd been in wars, revolts, for a couple of decades. Wanted to see them finally begin some turn around from years of horror. Sadly, I just can't see it happening anytime soon.

[CountDeMoney]

For more on Afghanistan, visit your local library and check out the chapter on Afghanistan in PJ O'Rourke's Parliament of Whores.  Hilarious stuff.

[Razgovory]

Maybe you shouldn't be working there then.  I'm sure having contempt for a people hinders efforts to create propaganda.

Eh, not sure respect for the subjects is that helpful when trying to manipulate large groups of people. I suspect many people in marketing and advertising are cynical assholes.

Contempt for your audience shows through in your work.