Retard kings of old

[Razgovory]

Invasions really don't change the genetic makeup of the conquer people very much.  The people of the UK probably look little different then the people of the Roman Briton.  There are exceptions of course, such as the US.

[Siege]

Yeah Raz, because the conquerors don't rape the women of the conquered, nor do they kill and displace them.

[Ideologue]

Invasions really don't change the genetic makeup of the conquer people very much.  The people of the UK probably look little different then the people of the Roman Briton.  There are exceptions of course, such as the US.

Well, Celts and Germans didn't look all that different in the first place afaik.  One group wore golf pants, there's that, but that's probably not genetic.

[Fireblade]

I was about to call Siege a retard because I'm white and I get just as dark as shopped Cleopatra when I've been out in the sun all summer, but then I remembered that I'm mixed. 

First: Interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup

Second: I don't buy that there wasn't some mixing somewhere along the line in the Ptolomies. Ten generations of sibling incest? That would result in a genetic horror show even more disturbing than Carlos II, or Santorum's baby with six chromosomes or whatever it has. I'd be willing to bet that one of her female ancestors got something on the side, somewhere along the way.

[Drakken]

Second: I don't buy that there wasn't some mixing somewhere along the line in the Ptolomies. Ten generations of sibling incest? That would result in a genetic horror show even more disturbing than Carlos II, or Santorum's baby with six chromosomes or whatever it has. I'd be willing to bet that one of her female ancestors got something on the side, somewhere along the way.

The Lagid made it a point that only full descendants of Ptolemy could become Pharoah, and they would probably take ways to have their children in check. While Lagids most probably had bastards with the native Egyptians the only who would "count" were those born of siblings. However, we can't discount that one Cleopatra, Berenice, or Arsinoe might have have an Egyptian lover, but there's no way to verify. That said, we know that Cleopatra wasn't black, she had Macedonian and Mediterranean traits.

Like I argued earlier, inbreeding doesn't necessarily lead to mental disease. Although inbreeding most probably didn't help his case, Carlos II's mental defects could have have been caused by syphillis due to his Philippe IV's constant whoring in the Madrid brothels. Plus, the physical consequences of the Lagid inbreeding (protuding eyes, large neck, etc.) has been noted even by contemporaries, but obviously it hadn't reached the point of pedigree collapse.

Also, the Lagid were a notoriously cutthroat family to live in, and brothers and sisters would routinely conspire against one another for the Egyptian succession. In that situation, weaker and dumber siblings would probably being weeded out. Carlos II couldn't, because he was the only scion of the Spanish Habsburg and was pampered to remain alive as long as possible to avert a succession crisis.

[garbon]

Philippe, really?

[Drakken]

Philippe, really?

Allright, Philip. 

[Razgovory]

Yeah Raz, because the conquerors don't rape the women of the conquered, nor do they kill and displace them.

Less then you think.  People also tended to get conquered by people who live next door and are genetically similar anyway.  Or are you talking from experience?  Were you out raping women in Lebanon and Iraq?  You really shouldn't do that.

[Fireblade]

Second: I don't buy that there wasn't some mixing somewhere along the line in the Ptolomies. Ten generations of sibling incest? That would result in a genetic horror show even more disturbing than Carlos II, or Santorum's baby with six chromosomes or whatever it has. I'd be willing to bet that one of her female ancestors got something on the side, somewhere along the way.

The Lagid made it a point that only full descendants of Ptolemy could become Pharoah, and they would probably take ways to have their children in check. While Lagids most probably had bastards with the native Egyptians the only who would "count" were those born of siblings. However, we can't discount that one Cleopatra, Berenice, or Arsinoe might have have an Egyptian lover, but there's no way to verify. That said, we know that Cleopatra wasn't black, she had Macedonian and Mediterranean traits.

Like I argued earlier, inbreeding doesn't necessarily lead to mental disease. Although inbreeding most probably didn't help his case, Carlos II's mental defects could have have been caused by syphillis due to his Philippe IV's constant whoring in the Madrid brothels. Plus, the physical consequences of the Lagid inbreeding (protuding eyes, large neck, etc.) has been noted even by contemporaries, but obviously it hadn't reached the point of pedigree collapse.

Also, the Lagid were a notoriously cutthroat family to live in, and brothers and sisters would routinely conspire against one another for the Egyptian succession. In that situation, weaker and dumber siblings would probably being weeded out. Carlos II couldn't, because he was the only scion of the Spanish Habsburg and was pampered to remain alive as long as possible to avert a succession crisis.

Oh, I wasn't arguing that Cleopatra was black or anything. I just have serious doubts that ten generations of incest wouldn't have resulted in complete pedigree collapse long before Cleopatra came on the scene.

So how "dark" are Greeks, anyway?

[garbon]

There are exceptions of course, such as the US.

All of the Americas/Australia for one(?).

[Fireblade]

Yeah Raz, because the conquerors don't rape the women of the conquered, nor do they kill and displace them.

Less then you think.  People also tended to get conquered by people who live next door and are genetically similar anyway.  Or are you talking from experience?  Were you out raping women in Lebanon and Iraq?  You really shouldn't do that.

:nod:

In the Saxon's case, I think the combined numbers of ALL the Germanic tribes that invaded England (Saxons, Jutes, and Angles) was something like 30,000, compared to 500,000 or so Britons. Same with the Norman invasion, except I think even fewer Normans came over. There just haven't been enough immigrants to England (until recent times, I suppose) to make a huge impact on the genetic makeup of the English people as a whole.

[Razgovory]

There are exceptions of course, such as the US.

All of the Americas/Australia for one(?).

Yes the colonization of the New World was a bit different as it was accompanied a mass die off of the natives followed by a series of wars in which stone age societies with tiny populations fought guys with guns.  Compare this to the Norman invasion of England where an army of less then 10,000 conquered an area with a population of probably around two million.

[Solmyr]

Philippe, really?

Allright, Philip. 

Felipe!

[crazy canuck]

Some support for Raz's position.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene_2.html

Many historians now believe subsequent invaders from mainland Europe had little genetic impact on the British.

The notion that large-scale migrations caused drastic change in early Britain has been widely discredited, according to Simon James, an archaeologist at Leicester University, England.

"The gene pool of the island has changed, but more slowly and far less completely than implied by the old invasion model," James writes in an article for the website BBC History.

For the English, their defining period was the arrival of Germanic tribes known collectively as the Anglo-Saxons. Some researchers suggest this invasion consisted of as few as 10,000 to 25,000 people—not enough to displace existing inhabitants.

Analysis of human remains unearthed at an ancient cemetery near Abingdon, England, indicates that Saxon immigrants and native Britons lived side by side.

"Probably what we're dealing with is a majority of British people who were dominated politically by a new elite," Miles said. "They were swamped culturally but not genetically."