Gotcha!

[Gups]

I think toys and games are much more gender specific than they used to be look at the inexorable rise of pink.  Certainly boys generally prefer some games and toys and boys others but the marketing firms accentuate those differences hugely.

http://www.pinkstinks.org.uk/

[Valmy]

Accentuating those differences is a lazy (but very effective it seems) way of appealing to the lowest common demoninator I presume.  I mean you do research to see which colors and things are most popular you are going to end up that way.  Individual preferences and traits get drowned by generalities.  Advertising has that quality for adult products as well naturally.

[jimmy olsen]

I like how Tim's article doesn't support his assertion that it is "completely nature based".

Monkeys aren't affected by socialization yet the trend is there. I don't think humans are any different.

[PDH]

I like how Tim's article doesn't support his assertion that it is "completely nature based".

Monkeys aren't affected by socialization yet the trend is there. I don't think humans are any different.

Of course monkeys are affected by socialization.  For certain in a different way than more complex social animals, but unless you are arguing they do not have social interaction than your statement is bullshit.

[Razgovory]

Cats are affected by socialization.

[Valmy]

Cats are affected by socialization.

Then why is herding cats so difficult?

[garbon]

I like how Tim's article doesn't support his assertion that it is "completely nature based".

Monkeys aren't affected by socialization yet the trend is there. I don't think humans are any different.

She thinks that biological differences between sexes start the ball rolling toward learned preferences for play toys.

"There is likely to be a biological tendency that is amplified by society," she says.

[garbon]

Perhaps I come from a family of strange genes then. My siblings and I always had a hodge-podge across the spectrum. As far as I know, my sisters watched Thomas the Tank Engine just as much as myself.

How is that strange?  Individuals tend to do that: be hodge-podge across the spectrum.  That is exactly what I was saying.  I was only commenting on how people are really comes out early.  Tons of girls have enjoyed stuff intended for boys and vice versa.  I think I specifically mentioned as that being one of the key pieces that makes me confident my opinion on this subject is correct.  After all if people did have their traits put on them by society both you and your sisters should have conformed no?

I thought you were suggesting there is an overwhelming biological tendency towards certain interests/toys for each gender...so my comment was that my sisters and I seemed to have preferences that ignored all traditional gendered toy distinctions.

Also, I think socialization did play a role. I was the eldest child who like to play with toys of all types and was close to my siblings (which reinforced the acceptability of any type of toy to my siblings). I also had parents who were okay with letting the 3 of us play with whatever type of toy we wanted, regardless of the gender associated with a particular type.  I'm pretty sure that if my parents had restricted me to male only toys and them to girl only toys that we probably would have been okay sticking to those things.

The school bit is a bit complicated as from what I've been told - I blatantly didn't care and brought my barbie for show and tell.  I wonder though if that has to do with the familial unit having the greatest socialization influence on early childhood as certainly by my teens I was at least more outwardly conformist, if not inwardly.

[Valmy]

I thought you were suggesting there is an overwhelming biological tendency towards certain interests/toys for each gender...so my comment was that my sisters and I seemed to have preferences that ignored all traditional gendered toy distinctions.

What I am suggesting is actually a bit more complicated than that.  That there are certain traits that people of certain gender generally have, but most people do not have all of them and some people may have none of them, and those traits predispose to certain interests which then marketing peeps and toymakers and so forth cater to.

Also, I think socialization did play a role. I was the eldest child who like to play with toys of all types and was close to my siblings (which reinforced the acceptability of any type of toy to my siblings). I also had parents who were okay with letting the 3 of us play with whatever type of toy we wanted, regardless of the gender associated with a particular type.  I'm pretty sure that if my parents had restricted me to male only toys and them to girl only toys that we probably would have been okay sticking to those things.

Well it is complicated obviously.  If it were simple there would be consensus on the nature versus nurture debate.  My belief is that most of your traits are hardcoded and dictate how you will react to socialization.  Socialization has a role but I think its ability to mold people is over-stated.

As you said even though you were conforming on the outside it still did not feel right.

[garbon]

Well it is complicated obviously.  If it were simple there would be consensus on the nature versus nurture debate.  My belief is that most of your traits are hardcoded and dictate how you will react to socialization.  Socialization has a role but I think its ability to mold people is over-stated.

Except that in this case we are talking toy preference. I don't see why that would be something so immutable.

As you said even though you were conforming on the outside it still did not feel right.

Well the reason I added that distinction is I don't really remember it as the same sort of issue as I got older. At that point it was about my sexuality and not about toy preference.  I'm not sure I entirely understand the distinction by gender at the early teen stage.

Also, I'm not really sure I would say that playing with whatever I wanted felt right, it just was.  Just like it didn't necessarily feel wrong when my mother forbid me to use a skateboard I received as a gift because we lived on a hill.

[Valmy]

Except that in this case we are talking toy preference. I don't see why that would be something so immutable.

Indeed we are.  Where is the immutability coming in?  I don't see it.

Also, I'm not really sure I would say that playing with whatever I wanted felt right, it just was.  Just like it didn't necessarily feel wrong when my mother forbid me to use a skateboard I received as a gift because we lived on a hill.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  I was talking about how you conformed when you became aware of society's expectations and how weird it felt.  Are we exclusively talking about toy selection still?  I thought you were talking about other issues that came up as you got older so I assumed you had moved on to your sexuality and other issues.  I presume you played with whatever you were provided with in whatever manner you found most fun.

[garbon]

Indeed we are.  Where is the immutability coming in?  I don't see it.

Well you stated that you think the influence of socialization is overstated. I think socialization plays a large role in expression of perhaps biologically pre-disposed preferences as far as toy selection.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make.  I was talking about how you conformed when you became aware of society's expectations and how weird it felt.  Are we exclusively talking about toy selection still?  I thought you were talking about other issues that came up as you got older so I assumed you had moved on to your sexuality and other issues.  I presume you played with whatever you were provided with in whatever manner you found most fun.

Yeah it was muddled. I guess my thoughts were that parents/family are most important as far as observing socialization in young children. Which is why even if society thought my sisters shouldn't be interested in race cars, it didn't really matter because my parents were fine with that. I'm not sure that they were biologically pre-disposed to playing with race cars but perhaps were strongly influenced by myself and parents supporting race cars as something that anyone could play with.  That's in direct contradiction to your suggestion that my sisters and I should have conformed because "people" were socializing us in a different direction (with those people being school teacher, fellow pupils - I presume).  I think by the time that the opinions of those other people became more important, I'd already developed my preferences so the impact that their thoughts could play had less influence.

I'm not sure that is comparable to someone who feels transgendered as I think there might be a bigger biological basis there than there is to toy selection - although I would say that from my "socialized" view, it's hard for me to understand the statement that someone could feel like they were born in the wrong body, given that I think you can assume all sorts of gender roles no matter your sex.

[Ideologue]

I was totally born in the wrong body.  I mean, take the brain just for starters.

[Razgovory]

I think toys and games are much more gender specific than they used to be look at the inexorable rise of pink.  Certainly boys generally prefer some games and toys and boys others but the marketing firms accentuate those differences hugely.

http://www.pinkstinks.org.uk/

There is no way in hell I am going to click something called Pinkstinks.org.uk

[Malthus]

I was totally born in the wrong body.  I mean, take the brain just for starters.

I would, but I lack a glass jar of sufficient size.