David Frum on the GOP

[DGuller]

That was pretty well said.

Although I don't think Frum;s point was really about what Conservatism ought to be, but rather what it sure as hell ought NOT to be.

And the current iteration if a fucking mess. It is about as bad as it could get, in fact. This embrace of ignorance and willful demand for conformity to principles that simply do not make any fucking sense to anyone on their merits is frightening.

What I find most frightening in American conservatives is not the lack of reasoning skills, but rather lack of ability to comprehend reality. 

If you touch a hot stove and feel the burning sensation, you probably see it as a bad thing, even if you can't reason out why it's something that shouldn't be done.  However, if you get an orgasm every time you touch a hot stove, you'll just keep touching the hot stove. 

American conservatives create one disaster after another, but they can't even comprehend that they're creating a disaster.

[Jacob]

Yeah BB, well said. Conservatism as you just described it is something I'm quite comfortable with. While I may disagree on any given particular, the general approach is one that I am very content with

[Barrister]

Wow.  I'm touched.  while I don't think I've espoused Burkean conservatism for the entire time I've been on Languish, it has been a lot of years since I found that was my particular political home and I've rarely gotten that kind of reception.

[Ideologue]

That was pretty well said.

Although I don't think Frum;s point was really about what Conservatism ought to be, but rather what it sure as hell ought NOT to be.

And the current iteration if a fucking mess. It is about as bad as it could get, in fact. This embrace of ignorance and willful demand for conformity to principles that simply do not make any fucking sense to anyone on their merits is frightening.

What I find most frightening in American conservatives is not the lack of reasoning skills, but rather lack of ability to comprehend reality. 

It's really strange.  Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think you see that same inability on the American left.  You do see extremism, and of course there are some who are basically crazy and draw insane conclusions from actual facts, but American leftism does not appear to be to nearly the same extent delusional about the facts themselves.  Like, I know of no left-wing equivalent of birtherism or creationism.

[Barrister]

That was pretty well said.

Although I don't think Frum;s point was really about what Conservatism ought to be, but rather what it sure as hell ought NOT to be.

And the current iteration if a fucking mess. It is about as bad as it could get, in fact. This embrace of ignorance and willful demand for conformity to principles that simply do not make any fucking sense to anyone on their merits is frightening.

What I find most frightening in American conservatives is not the lack of reasoning skills, but rather lack of ability to comprehend reality. 

It's really strange.  Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think you see that same inability on the American left.  You do see extremism, and of course there are some who are basically crazy and draw insane conclusions from actual facts, but American leftism does not appear to be to nearly the same extent delusional about the facts themselves.  Like, I know of no left-wing equivalent of birtherism or creationism.

I'm not sure of that.  The left has a pretty strong ability for self-delusion as well.  Take its belief in anti-globalism/anti-free-trade, or belief in trade unionism.

[DGuller]

I think the culprit is cable news and the Internet.  These new media allow 1984 levels of indoctrination for those already predisposed to it, and soon the reality pushed by yellow journalists becomes THE reality for those exposed to it.  It just so happens that conservatives (or actually reactionaries) are much, much better at creating such reality bubbles.

[Ideologue]

Wow.  I'm touched.  while I don't think I've espoused Burkean conservatism for the entire time I've been on Languish, it has been a lot of years since I found that was my particular political home and I've rarely gotten that kind of reception.

Thing is, your brand of conservatism would probably work if everyone were like you: essentially good.

[Barrister]

Wow.  I'm touched.  while I don't think I've espoused Burkean conservatism for the entire time I've been on Languish, it has been a lot of years since I found that was my particular political home and I've rarely gotten that kind of reception.

Thing is, your brand of conservatism would probably work if everyone were like you: essentially good.

I'm pretty sure that neither Edmund Burke nor myself would argue that man is essentially good.  We need a strong society to ensure the goodness of its members.

[Sheilbh]

I thought people here might agree with this too:
http://drezner.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/11/27/hi_my_names_dan_and_im_a_rino
The Republican candidates foreign policy views do kind-of scare me.  His essay in the Spectator's worth reading on that too.

[Barrister]

This thread wants me to go back to a Burkean avatar, like I have had so many times on Languish... yet when my current avatar combines the cuteness of my son, with the awsomeness of the Winnipeg Jets, I can't bring myself to make the change.   

[Ideologue]

That was pretty well said.

Although I don't think Frum;s point was really about what Conservatism ought to be, but rather what it sure as hell ought NOT to be.

And the current iteration if a fucking mess. It is about as bad as it could get, in fact. This embrace of ignorance and willful demand for conformity to principles that simply do not make any fucking sense to anyone on their merits is frightening.

What I find most frightening in American conservatives is not the lack of reasoning skills, but rather lack of ability to comprehend reality. 

It's really strange.  Maybe I'm biased, but I don't think you see that same inability on the American left.  You do see extremism, and of course there are some who are basically crazy and draw insane conclusions from actual facts, but American leftism does not appear to be to nearly the same extent delusional about the facts themselves.  Like, I know of no left-wing equivalent of birtherism or creationism.

I'm not sure of that.  The left has a pretty strong ability for self-delusion as well.  Take its belief in anti-globalism/anti-free-trade, or belief in trade unionism.

I think that's an apples and oranges comparison, though.  Assuming for argument's sake that anti-globalism is wrong (that's an argument for another day), that's what I mean by wrong conclusions.  If I were going to list examples of things I thought were simply wrong, rather than factually incorrect, I'd have noted the deification of deficit cutting.  That's an insane conclusion, but it is not an argument against plain fact.

Like, the equivalent of the birtherism/"Obama is a secret Muslim" stuff would be to accuse Mitt Romney of having four underage brides he keeps locked in his basement solely because he's a Mormon, or claiming that Rick Perry is a robot based solely on that one time his OS crashed.

[Ideologue]

Wow.  I'm touched.  while I don't think I've espoused Burkean conservatism for the entire time I've been on Languish, it has been a lot of years since I found that was my particular political home and I've rarely gotten that kind of reception.

Thing is, your brand of conservatism would probably work if everyone were like you: essentially good.

I'm pretty sure that neither Edmund Burke nor myself would argue that man is essentially good.  We need a strong society to ensure the goodness of its members.

But while conservative governance is perhaps able to stop ruinous excesses, it seems powerless to stop everyday evil; for inevitably conservative government defends the status quo out of caution, and those who profit from the status quo out of misplaced interest, even if the status quo is untenable.  The result is that change comes at great cost in human suffering, if it ever comes at all.

[Barrister]

Wow.  I'm touched.  while I don't think I've espoused Burkean conservatism for the entire time I've been on Languish, it has been a lot of years since I found that was my particular political home and I've rarely gotten that kind of reception.

Thing is, your brand of conservatism would probably work if everyone were like you: essentially good.

I'm pretty sure that neither Edmund Burke nor myself would argue that man is essentially good.  We need a strong society to ensure the goodness of its members.

But while conservative governance is perhaps able to stop ruinous excesses, it seems powerless to stop everyday evil; for inevitably conservative government defends the status quo out of caution, and those who profit from the status quo out of misplaced interest, even if the status quo is untenable.  The result is that change comes at great cost in human suffering, if it ever comes at all.

conservatism defends the status quo as modern society, through centuries of evolution, has shown itself as being the BEST to minimize "everyday evil".

If you think modern society is worse then some other society in history you're free to think it - I wholeheartedly disagree.  If instead you think that western society in 2011 is the best possible society in human history to date - but it could possible be improved, well then you and I agree fundamentally, and only disagree in how that is best accomplished.

[Eddie Teach]

Real conservatives don't use Macs.

[Sheilbh]

But while conservative governance is perhaps able to stop ruinous excesses, it seems powerless to stop everyday evil; for inevitably conservative government defends the status quo out of caution, and those who profit from the status quo out of misplaced interest, even if the status quo is untenable.  The result is that change comes at great cost in human suffering, if it ever comes at all.

Conservatism's about changing to preserve the status quo.  Otherwise you end up with revolution.