David Frum on the GOP

[Scipio]

I'm serious about deficits.  I'm serious about deficit spending.  Since one counter-example disproves your universal assertion, Raz, you are wrong.

Ron Paul and Gary Johnson are serious about deficits.  Justin Amash is serious about the deficit.

BTW, Frum is a Bushite/McCainiac.  He's about as fake GOP as it comes.  AuH2O 4ever!

Anyway, nobody is really serious about deficits.  There's not many votes there.  The party out of power bitches about spending not because it's opposed to spending on principle but because it's spending on things that party doesn't like.  Sure there are a few oddballs who real budget hawks, but they dwarfed by those really aren't. Reducing deficits is not a  policy, it's a political maneuver.  I know Yi is a genuine deficit hawk, and is amped now that his political party is talking about deficits.  In fact he wants to talk about deficits in this thread, which isn't really what the OP was about.  He's only going to let himself down.

Bolded in case you couldn't read.

Ron Paul thinks the CIA launched a coup and now runs the government.  And Gary Johnson's state brings in more federal dollar per captia then any other state in the Union.

Show me the facts on that re: Gary Johnson being responsible for that.

And Frum is fake as hell.  Compassion has no place in public policy.  Compassionate conservatism is a suicide pact.  Conservatism should be about conserving the fisc, preserving national security, and being left the hell alone.  Someone who thinks GWB and McCain are the high watermarks of conservative thought has no business opining on the fate of the GOP that he helped make.  Today's GOP is the logical result of Frum's bullshit.  I've heard enough from Frum over the years.  He's played out.

[Ideologue]

Compassion has no place in public policy.

That's an interesting thing to say.

[Scipio]

Compassion has no place in public policy.

That's an interesting thing to say.

Compassion's role is to create exceptions to public policy.  Policy considerations in a republic are predicated  on doing the least harm to the largest number of citizens, not about taking care of cute little puppies.  We hospitalize the criminally insane not because we care about them, but because leaving them out harms society.

[Ideologue]

Ok, I think I see where you're coming from.  In some ways, I suppose I sort of agree, but I think there's a pretty close relationship between programs which are good for/reduce harm to society and programs which are "compassionate."

E.g., it harms society to have a 10-15% unemployment rate; it would be compassionate to encourage employment instead.

On the other hand, it's not really "compassion" if inability to pay for programs which aren't even likely to have much effect leads to even worse outcomes.

[Jacob]

I agree that compassion should have little to no place in shaping public policy. This is exactly why charities should not be involved in providing social services.

[crazy canuck]

I suppose it depends on what one means by compassion.  As Ide pointed out good public policy could be viewed as also being compassionate.  A good example of that is the creation of the insite clinic.  Not only does it reduce harm (both individual and societal) but it also does so in a compassionate manner.

I am not sure what public policy might look like if policy makers consciously tried to avoid being compassionate.  I suspect it would be a bit hellish.

[Jacob]

I suppose it depends on what one means by compassion.  As Ide pointed out good public policy could be viewed as also being compassionate.  A good example of that is the creation of the insite clinic.  Not only does it reduce harm (both individual and societal) but it also does so in a compassionate manner.

I am not sure what public policy might look like if policy makers consciously tried to avoid being compassionate.  I suspect it would be a bit hellish.

For my part I mean that public policy shouldn't be based overly on "oh isn't it too bad for those poor people" or whatever. It should be based on maintaining a well functioning society. Food and health care security for the population of a Western country is not a matter of charity and kind feelings, it's a matter of having a society that functions. EI, social security and various other forms of income support should be well regulated insurance schemes guaranteed and administrated by the state. The state should look out for the welfare, economic and otherwise, of the citizenry not because of compassion but because its one of the core function of the state.

[DGuller]

I suppose it depends on what one means by compassion.  As Ide pointed out good public policy could be viewed as also being compassionate.  A good example of that is the creation of the insite clinic.  Not only does it reduce harm (both individual and societal) but it also does so in a compassionate manner.

I am not sure what public policy might look like if policy makers consciously tried to avoid being compassionate.  I suspect it would be a bit hellish.

For my part I mean that public policy shouldn't be based overly on "oh isn't it too bad for those poor people" or whatever. It should be based on maintaining a well functioning society. Food and health care security for the population of a Western country is not a matter of charity and kind feelings, it's a matter of having a society that functions. EI, social security and various other forms of income support should be well regulated insurance schemes guaranteed and administrated by the state. The state should look out for the welfare, economic and otherwise, of the citizenry not because of compassion but because its one of the core function of the state.

SOCIALIST!!!  BURN HIM!!! 

[citizen k]

The state should look out for the welfare, economic and otherwise, of the citizenry not because of compassion but because its one of the core function of the state.

You still need some other entity (private ngos, charities, etc.) to fill in the inevitable gaps in service.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't go as far as Skippy.  Compassion should play a role, but compassion should be balanced with the realization that *any* kind of assistance creates disincentives.

[Jacob]

You still need some other entity (private ngos, charities, etc.) to fill in the inevitable gaps in service.

The presence of NGOs providing essential services to the population to me is a sign that the state is falling short in living up to its mandate.

Though, I suppose it's fine to have private institutions providing these services as long as they provide the necessary services at the required level. Ultimately, however, it is the states responsibility to make sure the citizenry is served adequately. I'm fine with public-private partnerships that work.

[Razgovory]

Show me the facts on that re: Gary Johnson being responsible for that.

And Frum is fake as hell.  Compassion has no place in public policy.  Compassionate conservatism is a suicide pact.  Conservatism should be about conserving the fisc, preserving national security, and being left the hell alone.  Someone who thinks GWB and McCain are the high watermarks of conservative thought has no business opining on the fate of the GOP that he helped make.  Today's GOP is the logical result of Frum's bullshit.  I've heard enough from Frum over the years.  He's played out.

Why would Gary Johnson be responsible for that?   He was Gov, not a Senator.  Doesn't mean he didn't benefit from it.  It's easier to balance the budget when you get two dollars from the fed for every dollar you pay in taxes.  Incidentally The Missouri Governor also has a balanced budget and he didn't have to be libertarian to do it, or take such high percentage of federal money.  Also Gary Johnson's predecessor had a balanced budget as was required by that state's constitution.

Libertarianism has no place in public policy.  It's the dwelling place of kooks and the chronically ignorant.  Having government get the hell out of everyone's business is to be trade one rule we can control, for a thousand little despots we can't.

[Razgovory]

I don't go as far as Skippy.  Compassion should play a role, but compassion should be balanced with the realization that *any* kind of assistance creates disincentives.

I thought you were out.

[Admiral Yi]

You're covering yourself in glory Raz.

[Neil]

A good example of that is the creation of the insite clinic.  Not only does it reduce harm (both individual and societal) but it also does so in a compassionate manner.

A better example would be summarily executing everyone who tries to use the insite clinic.