The Future of the Catholic Church

[Iormlund]

The scandals are not the only, not even the main source of troubles for the Church. Their loss of influence predates the scandals.

At least over here you don't have to go 50 years into the future to see change. In a few decades most of their Spanish followers, not to mention priests and nuns, will be dead from old age. I can think of only one person my age who might attend mass or follow Catholic teachings. That's in a country where supposedly 94% of the population is Catholic according to the Church.

[Barrister]

No. Just no. The Pope has been uttering criticisms at Spanish laws on abortion, gay marriage and adoption, euthanasia and so on for years. He is still trying to play the same role as ever. Only nobody pays attention anymore.

Yeah the Church'll carry on speaking about these issues,  I think more rigorously than used to be the case.  But the idea of the clericalist state that used to exist in Ireland, and Spain and possibly Poland is dead.  As you indicate no-one listens, I think the Church'll be more or less as it in England.  You'll get articles and interviews with senior clerics on these sort of subjects and the occassional strop (gay adoption) but the sort of clerical arrogance and power that used to exist (certainly in Ireland and I'm projecting onto Spain and Poland) is over.

WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.

I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading.  Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people.  As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated.  It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.

In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.

[Razgovory]

The second sentence is, indeed, correct.  Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.

I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.

I thought you were a Nationalist.

[Camerus]

The second sentence is, indeed, correct.  Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.

I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.

I thought you were a Nationalist.

[Martinus]

WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.

I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading.  Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people.  As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated.  It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.

In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.

I think much more people would notice if the CoE disappeared than if any of the hard core evangelical churches did. I think you, as someone not familiar with a catholic country, underestimate the gap that would emerge if the catholic church withdrew the way you describe - it would be a total and abject capitulation.

I also don't think, with the Holy See and vast wealth it has, it would be able to maintain the current "business model" if it became as you describe. Something would have to give. Since humans are ultimately a greedy bunch, I suspect it will rather adapt to please more people (e.g. gay civil partnerships yes, abortion no) than give up all it has accumulated over centuries.

I think what it may do is to become a sort of CoE for the masses (Catholicism-Lite) and then continue to attract the hard core minority with "Super Membership" Experience, such as Opus Dei and Knights of Columbus. I.e. it will continue doing what it has done for centuries.

[Valmy]

I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.

I thought you were a Nationalist.

[Barrister]

WHen this thread first came up I didn't have time to respond.

I think this is where the Catholic Church is heading.  Ultimately it is not going to be a "catholic" roman Catholic Church (i.e. universal) - it seems content to stake out its very specific set of beliefs, rather than try to be all things to all people.  As uch it is going to wind up being much smaller, but more concentrated.  It is surprisingly going the route of American evangelical churches, rather than following the route of Protestant or Orthodox state churches.

In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.

I think much more people would notice if the CoE disappeared than if any of the hard core evangelical churches did. I think you, as someone not familiar with a catholic country, underestimate the gap that would emerge if the catholic church withdrew the way you describe - it would be a total and abject capitulation.

I also don't think, with the Holy See and vast wealth it has, it would be able to maintain the current "business model" if it became as you describe. Something would have to give. Since humans are ultimately a greedy bunch, I suspect it will rather adapt to please more people (e.g. gay civil partnerships yes, abortion no) than give up all it has accumulated over centuries.

I think what it may do is to become a sort of CoE for the masses (Catholicism-Lite) and then continue to attract the hard core minority with "Super Membership" Experience, such as Opus Dei and Knights of Columbus. I.e. it will continue doing what it has done for centuries.

What you describe is certainly an option for the RCC.  It is, however, one that the RCC by all accounts is not following.   The Catholic Church is not adapting to please more people.  It is quite adamant in its positions.  There have been no changes in policy since Vatican II, and in tone it has if anything retreated into 'orthodoxy'.

The financial aspect is simply one that is impossible to know.  The RCC is one of the most secretive organizations in the world when it comes to its finances.  I know because I've been involved in lawsuits against it.  It is possible however that a smaller but devoted membership base will give more donations than a larger base of less enthusiastic members.

When I say would anyone notice if the CoE closed up - it is of course a rhetorical device.  But seriously - if it did close I suspect its parishioners could fairly rapidly find other denominations to attend (or would stop attending altogether and not really miss it).  The RCC is not the same, at present.  It is unique, and many of its current parishioners would not easily move to other denominations.  However if the RCC followed the 'Catholicism lite' approach it risks becoming like the CoE.

As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... .  As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country.  There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country.  I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion.  And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.

[Neil]

As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... .  As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country.  There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country.  I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion.  And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.

Yeah, but I don't think that we've had the same institutional relationship with the RCC that the shitty countries in Europe had.  Maybe Quebec back in the day, but I'm not sure about Manitoba.  Even then, there was always the protestant hordes of Ontario and the west keeping the papists neutered on a national level.  It's funny listening to the anti-Catholic attitudes of people my parents' age.

[Barrister]

As for "someone not familiar with a catholic country"... .  As you well know, Canada is an immigrant country.  There are no shortage of latin americans and philipinos here, who bring their devotion to the RCC to this country.  I'll stack my experience up against yours any time in terms of ability to express an informed opinion.  And I'll throw in my jesuit education as well.

Yeah, but I don't think that we've had the same institutional relationship with the RCC that the shitty countries in Europe had.  Maybe Quebec back in the day, but I'm not sure about Manitoba.  Even then, there was always the protestant hordes of Ontario and the west keeping the papists neutered on a national level.  It's funny listening to the anti-Catholic attitudes of people my parents' age.

Your parents age?

Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.

And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...

[Neil]

Your parents age?

Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.

And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...

I dunno.  I can think of some people in their 60s who grew up in areas with Catholics who aren't too fond of the Church.

[Razgovory]

Your parents age?

Anti-catholic attitudes are more like my grandparents age.

And it's not as if Britain has had any institutional relationship with the RCC for a few hundred years...

Well besides murdering their followers.

[Sheilbh]

In the long run it makes the Catholic Church much more likely to survive as a meaningful institution (if they closed the Church of England would anybody notice?), but it will certainly be a different kind of church.

I think the CofE's one of those things that we wouldn't know what we had until we lost it.  And it's still weirdly important in rural England.  The one in my parent's village (incidentally Cardinal Reginald Pole's old parish) is like the pub, the duck race and the carnival an imporant part of the community's life.

But seriously - if it did close I suspect its parishioners could fairly rapidly find other denominations to attend (or would stop attending altogether and not really miss it).

Not true especially with the CofE.  They're there because they're not religious.  If it went they'd just have slightly more lonely, sadder social lives.  Catholics and the rest are believers.

I also don't think Marti's right. 

First of all as BBoy says there's been no major shift in doctrine since Vatican II.  I think we'll see a 'liberalisation' (this is the wrong word) in terms of policy and procedure.  So there'll be more external oversight, more roles for the laity and, as I said,  I think an end to clericalist arrogance.  But I don't think we'll see doctrine move an inch when it hasn't over the past 40 years.  And I think in doctrinal terms Vatican II is overstated.

Secondly I'd say that I think Benedict and the conservative wing have a point when they say 'Catholicism-lite' has failed.  They've tried content free Catholicism built around JPII's enormous charisma for a while and it hasn't worked.  Certainly in this country we're seeing a revival of the Latin mass and the central role for sacred music (as opposed to a guitar) and it is the conservative parishes and dioceses that are thriving.  The ones that are more liberal in outlook (on everything not just politically controversial parts of doctrine) that are declining..

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

All of those trends will, I think, continue and are being strengthened by Benedict's appointments at a diocesan level.  I believe in the US he's had an especially strong impact filling up dioceses.

[grumbler]

The second sentence is, indeed, correct.  Not believing in the reality of anything other than one's own existence is a severe mental disorder, and any society whose citizenry is all stricken with a severe mental disorder is on its way to destruction.

I do not believe that a society where the citizens believe in an imaginary power greater than themselves to solve their problems is inherently superior to a society who understands the limits of reality.

Ah!  A non-sequitur contest!  Excellent.

My response:  I believe that the secret to a good pot of coffee is in getting the right proportions of water and ground coffee; one rounded tablespoon of ground coffee per 6 ounces of water.

[viper37]

At least over here you don't have to go 50 years into the future to see change. In a few decades most of their Spanish followers, not to mention priests and nuns, will be dead from old age. I can think of only one person my age who might attend mass or follow Catholic teachings. That's in a country where supposedly 94% of the population is Catholic according to the Church.

I've seen the same here, yet, nowadays, more&more youths ask to be married in a Church and have their children baptised.
The Church might change, it might scale back a little in 1st world country, but it's still gonna be an important religion 50 years from now, at about the same spot it is right now.

[viper37]

I thought you were a Nationalist.

how is that inconsistant?