The Future of the Catholic Church

[Zanza]

To illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.

Our government not only pays for religious education (protestant or catholic), but all the higher-ranking clerics (bishops etc.) are paid by the state. And then there is the church tax that is levied by our IRS. And because many social instiutions such as hospitals, schools, kindergartens etc. are operated by the churches, they get a lot of state money for that too.
And I would argue that Germany is already considerably more secularized than Poland or Spain, so the process of secularization does not necessarily mean that the church will lose all its perks.

[Sheilbh]

As a comment to a lot of the previous posts, especially by Sheilbh and BB, I think you guys are forgetting the fact that the catholic church has its own mini-state in the middle of Europe, and also has a lot of temporal influence in catholic countries. I don't think the withdrawal from the society that you describe will allow them to keep these holdings - in terms of manpower, finances and politics, the liberalizing EU countries will simply not tolerate its continued existence, if it grows more and more conservative and out of touch with the rest of Europe.

I don't think the Church'll withdraw from society I think they'll give up clericalist power - because society's given that up already - and they'll stand aside modern society.  They won't join in with gay marriage or adoption just because society's liberalising.  They'll be on the outside because of their own values.  I think this is the vision Benedict and the Church has of itself.  That it will stand, as it always has, unmoved by trends or fads.  I think that any socially liberal Catholicism will end up looking like liberation theologians do now.

I'd be surprised if any state would think about expropriating their property just because they've different views.  I don't know what you mean about the national monuments in Poland.  I don't know what they are and I don't know how or why the Church could restrict access to them.

To illustrate what Martinus is saying, the government pays here for Catholic religious education in public schools.

Same.  And we've got thousands of publically funded Catholic schools, hospices and social care groups.  That all also exists in Ireland - though some groups have been removed from education entirely.  But with education I'd just say it depends on the reputation of Catholic schools or Catholic education in your countries.  If they're seen as somehow better then you'll have an enormous fight to change them because you're messing with people's education.  I doubt there'll ever be an end to state funding for faith schools over here, or assembly with the local Priest/Vicar.  But even in France one of the biggest crises of Mitterrand's Presidency was due to an attempt to limit state financing for kids to go to private Catholic schools.

I think Belgium and Ireland will be the most interesting to watch because they're countries that have gone through the same liberalisation of attitudes without dismantling the Church.  But since then they've had child abuse scandals that have, as far as I can see, made the Church be held in contempt.  What happens there will be telling.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

I think you may well be right.  I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely.  The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.

seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

As a group the Amish aren't all that harmful. The mindset however is, and is not restricted to the amish alone. It's present everywhere and it does it's best to halt the march of progress.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

Crazy Ivan is a Belgian. Their king is catholic, catholic church plays a huge role in public life (even if it is more ceremonious now). Again, people from non-catholic countries should take extra care because you are simply not getting it if you think an ultra-conservative catholic church in, say, Belgium, is comparable to amish communities.

1) I'm flemish
2) the influence of the church on the general populace in belgium has been all but wiped out in the past 30 to 40 years.

[dps]

Thirdly I don't think the Church necessarily sees its future as being 'part' of modern society.  I think the conservative wing is becoming more popular precisely because it stands against things like gay marriage and abortion.  I don't think the Church sees its future as joining in with the changes in European or American mores as much as it sees itself increasingly as quite separate and detached.  Very much a City of God.

I think you may well be right.  I hadn't seen developments in exactly these terms, but your description and prescription fit what I am seeing and hearing quite closely.  The Catholic Church as a refuge from runaway modernity would, indeed, have a place and a certain degree of stable popularity.

seems there's the danger that instead of a refuge of runaway modernity it becomes a group of "refugees" running away from modernity. And we don't need more Amish-type groups. But we're not there yet, might never even get there.

Do you think that the existance of the Amish and similar groups is harmful to society as a whole.  I mean, on a certain level society doesn't "need" any such groups, but then socieity doesn't "need" online forums similar to Languish, either, but I don't think we're harming society just by posting here.

As a group the Amish aren't all that harmful. The mindset however is, and is not restricted to the amish alone. It's present everywhere and it does it's best to halt the march of progress.

The Amish (at least in America) don't try to keep others from progressing.  They just want progress to leave them behind.

[grumbler]

I think you can say nations are human constructs but they don't exist entirely in the mind.  Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things.  Far more so than, say, liberty or fraternity which are much-disputed human concepts.

Agreed.  Within the ambiguous limits of definitions, nations do exist (though identification with one is as subjective as any identification).  States are the pure legal constructs.

[grumbler]

The Amish (at least in America) don't try to keep others from progressing.  They just want progress to leave them behind.

And, even then, only some kinds of progress.  They don't eschew modern medicine, for example, and cooperate in medical studies that rely on their extensive and accurate family histories.  As scientific knowledge of inheritable disabilities has advanced, they have accelerated their efforts to broaden the pool of eligible Amish suitors and encourage their children to marry Amish from different communities.

Their primary objection is to any kind of progress that will reduce self-reliance and community.  One can argue that they have gone overboard with this, but I don't think one can argue that they do so blindly.

[Ed Anger]

I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.

[Maximus]

Is it flying if it's in space?

[Ed Anger]

Floating then.

[The Brain]

I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.

*cough*

[Viking]

I'd assume the future church will have lasers and a flying Space Pope.

[Valmy]

Languages, history, culture and all the other things that create a nation are real external things.

Languages, history, and culture are all made up stuff.  Most of human existance and the things we concern oursevles with are made up stuff.  It is the power and magic of humanity that we can make imaginary things seem as real as sticks and stones.

[Valmy]

1) I'm flemish

Good because I am not an American I am a Texan.

[dps]

1) I'm flemish

Good because I am not an American.

Your inferiority has long caused us to suspect that.

Languages, history, and culture are all made up stuff.  Most of human existance and the things we concern oursevles with are made up stuff.  It is the power and magic of humanity that we can make imaginary things seem as real as sticks and stones.

Languages, at least, have an external reality relative to their users.  Sure, they're a construct, but so's an automobile, and an automobile has an external reality relative to its driver.  I'd argue the same for history and culture, though with history, we have to allow for the possibility that it was entirely fictional.  (No doubt parts of what is popularly viewed as history, such as the story about George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, is fiction, and other parts are distorted and/or speculative, but the main thrust of historical narrative, is, I think, reasonably accurate.)