Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[Admiral Yi]

Yi acknowledges not knowing shit about this incident, but dammit, any police brutality is good police brutality and someone needs to step up to defend it.  And Neil is in his usual troll mode. 

I think this is the very first time I've seen you lying on this board.

[Admiral Yi]

Not at all.  My objection's the escalation and the attitudes involved.  The attitude that justifies it on the ground that they're disobeying the police I just don't get and the casual use of pepper spray is something I find unsettling in a police force.

In this example, as I say, I think there's passive resistance going on but it looks like a group that's dispersable. I don't think there's a need for any tough crowd control measures like kettling.  There's certainly no need for the police to be using pepper spray, in riot gear or carrying those paintball guns.  The use of force by the police and riot gear should only be because it's essential to preserve public order, or for their own safety.  I don't think either looks the case here.

It seems we're back to the previous point about demonstrator having a veto over the use of public space.  As long as they're nonviolent, there's nothing cops can do.

[Sheilbh]

It seems we're back to the previous point about demonstrator having a veto over the use of public space.  As long as they're nonviolent, there's nothing cops can do.

Disperse them peacefully.  There's a whole array of policing options between doing nothing - riot control tactics - use of force.

[Admiral Yi]

Disperse them peacefully.  There's a whole array of policing options between doing nothing - riot control tactics - use of force.

The one you mentioned was wait till they get bored and leave.  Can you name some more?

[Sheilbh]

The one you mentioned was wait till they get bored and leave.  Can you name some more?

What do you think should be the limits of police use of force?

As to your question I don't know, I'm not a crowd control trained cop.  My experience of sit-ins (though I've not taken part, I prefer a march) is that the protestors try to link arms and go limp - all of the usual passive resistance techniques - the cops disentangle them and lift them out, then they get booked for resisting arrest/causing a public disorder or whatever.

[Berkut]

This is an attitude I really dislike and find difficult to comprehend.  But it comes up whenever there's a tasing/pepper spray/police brutality thread.

I also find it bizarre that in your world demonstrators get a veto on use of public space.

Thing is pepper spray is supposed to be like a gun in terms of when you're supposed to use it.

Son, are you on drugs?

[Capetan Mihali]

Yi acknowledges not knowing shit about this incident, but dammit, any police brutality is good police brutality and someone needs to step up to defend it.  And Neil is in his usual troll mode. 

I think this is the very first time I've seen you lying on this board.

I would describe it as insinuating rather than lying.  But my role on this board has already changed.  I've always enjoyed the buddies aspect of Languish, but the tenor is different now than a few years ago.  I generally don't feel like making/staying friends here anymore, all I want to do is launch left-wing attacks on anything and everything.  Out of my genuine "positive" political commitments, for sure, but also out of a lot personal despair and hopelessness unrelated to the forum.   

I'm glad Sheilbh is around to engage in "reasonable" dialogue.  I certainly would have been doing so in the past.  But I'm losing a sense of why it's important or valuable to have that dialogue. 

The more I live and see, the more radical I've become.  Maybe it's just dealing with the criminal justice system and the vast carceral-industrial complex, actually getting to know the people who get the shaft.  Comparing teeth with a convict friend so we can see if all the teeth he lost during his stay in state prison from guard and inmate beatings look pretty normal.  Maybe it's spending time around a group of people who are all about legal reasoning in a social vacuum, when their ultimate commitments are to backing up the entrenched financial and governmental interests for lots of dough.

[chipwich]

You've certainly become less able to express your beliefs.

[chipwich]

Son, are you on drugs?

When do you believe that pepper spray is called for? I don't think it's when people are sitting down not attacking anyone.

[Capetan Mihali]

You've certainly become less able to express your beliefs.

I don't think I have any "beliefs."  Stances, positions, engagements, maybe, but not beliefs.  The only thing I believe in is mortality.

But it is hard to get the energy for a type of dialogue where the basic premises -- "the market," "liberty," "coercion," "rule of law" -- are already defined to the exclusion of positions that don't take any of these for granted.

[chipwich]

You've certainly become less able to express your beliefs.

I don't think I have any "beliefs."  Stances, positions, engagements, maybe, but not beliefs.  The only thing I believe in is mortality.

But it is hard to get the energy for a type of dialogue where the basic premises -- "the market," "liberty," "coercion," "rule of law" -- are already defined to the exclusion of positions that don't take any of these for granted.

This is word salad. Maybe you're high?

[Capetan Mihali]

This is word salad. Maybe you're high?

As long as they pile it with ranch, I'll eat it.  Getting high is a good way to avoid dealing with the implications of basic terms in trying to have a political discussion.  Except getting high on grass, then I'd get lost on the endless significance of every word...

[fhdz]

I would describe it as insinuating rather than lying.  But my role on this board has already changed.  I've always enjoyed the buddies aspect of Languish, but the tenor is different now than a few years ago.  I generally don't feel like making/staying friends here anymore, all I want to do is launch left-wing attacks on anything and everything.  Out of my genuine "positive" political commitments, for sure, but also out of a lot personal despair and hopelessness unrelated to the forum. 

I get this. Since I've been back here at Languish, I've remembered a bit what was so maddening about it: the opportunities for coming to an understanding are so rare, while the people declaring victory because they caught a typo or twisted someone's words and crushed the resulting argument are Legion.

But I work in a nonprofit where political discussion of any stripe is frowned on (might offend donors) and so there's not many other places I can go to get some intelligent - if not necessarily educational - political discourse. So here I am.

[Berkut]

Son, are you on drugs?

When do you believe that pepper spray is called for? I don't think it's when people are sitting down not attacking anyone.

I don't know, but I am pretty sure that the continuum of force does not go from "Do nothing" to "Pepper spray or just shoot them".

My comment is solely directed at your claim that pepper spraying "supposed to be like a gun in terms of when you're supposed to use it."

That is just laughably wrong.

[chipwich]

Son, are you on drugs?

When do you believe that pepper spray is called for? I don't think it's when people are sitting down not attacking anyone.

I don't know, but I am pretty sure that the continuum of force does not go from "Do nothing" to "Pepper spray or just shoot them".

My comment is solely directed at your claim that pepper spraying "supposed to be like a gun in terms of when you're supposed to use it."

That is just laughably wrong.

I'm almost certain that pepper spray is for self-defense only, not to catch the bad guy; like a taser or gun. Do you have evidence to the contrary?