Wall Street protesters: We're in for the long haul

[Habbaku]

   Tasers and guns are definitely used to "catch the bad guy" in situations that aren't solely self-defense.  So is pepper spray.  Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[chipwich]

The cops can't just shoot a shoplifter or a speeder. And a speeder endangers way more people than the guy that was passively sitting on the ground.

[Martinus]

Yi acknowledges not knowing shit about this incident, but dammit, any police brutality is good police brutality and someone needs to step up to defend it.  And Neil is in his usual troll mode. 

I think this is the very first time I've seen you lying on this board.

I would describe it as insinuating rather than lying.  But my role on this board has already changed.  I've always enjoyed the buddies aspect of Languish, but the tenor is different now than a few years ago.  I generally don't feel like making/staying friends here anymore, all I want to do is launch left-wing attacks on anything and everything.  Out of my genuine "positive" political commitments, for sure, but also out of a lot personal despair and hopelessness unrelated to the forum.   

I'm glad Sheilbh is around to engage in "reasonable" dialogue.  I certainly would have been doing so in the past.  But I'm losing a sense of why it's important or valuable to have that dialogue. 

The more I live and see, the more radical I've become.  Maybe it's just dealing with the criminal justice system and the vast carceral-industrial complex, actually getting to know the people who get the shaft.  Comparing teeth with a convict friend so we can see if all the teeth he lost during his stay in state prison from guard and inmate beatings look pretty normal.  Maybe it's spending time around a group of people who are all about legal reasoning in a social vacuum, when their ultimate commitments are to backing up the entrenched financial and governmental interests for lots of dough.

Don't get annoyed with Yi. He is a contrarian loser. I think he doesn't even have a job, or was unemployed for a long time and was living with his parents despite being in his 30s. Stuff like this destroys souls. He is a husk. I just ignore him.

[Martinus]

Real solidarity is a powerful feeling.  If you're lucky enough to experience it once, I can imagine it might be life-defining.

Indeed, just ask these guys:

  Or these:



If the political term is deployed in a way that capitalist power interests find comfortable, especially from a distance, it's eye-wateringly moving.  Those brave Poles!    If it's used otherwise, yuo = Hitler.  Comprendo.   

Most people do not realize that the majority of Solidarity's demands were labour related and economical (such as minimum wage or working time rules) rather than political in nature. Solidarity was a trade union. It's funny when you see Walesa mentioned in the same breath as Reagan or Thatcher.

Edit: I know/suspect you know this. That's more for the benefit of the ignorami.

[CountDeMoney]

I've got huge problems with American/Euro style policing.  This and the NY traffic case are examples why.  On the other hand I think it's a cultural difference - like having guns - that I just won't ever get so there's not much of use to say.

What do you think is the appropriate way to get demonstrators to leave a place they're not supposed to be?

I don't know anything about The UC-Davis Pepper Spraying, but it looks from the pic that they're blocking a road and the copper wants them to leave.  Go up on the grassy knoll with the other demonstrators.

Then you pick them up and move them.  The OC spray was an unnecessary move.

[CountDeMoney]

  Tasers and guns are definitely used to "catch the bad guy" in situations that aren't solely self-defense.  So is pepper spray.  Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Cops don't like to put their hands on people.  Leads to lawsuits.  And, they're usually out of shape and have forgotten their come-along tactics they learned in the academy and forget the 8 hours of in-service training they usually skip every year.
Going straight to the baton or the taser or the OC spray isn't the usual doctrine, it's just really laziness.

[Darth Wagtaros]

I would describe it as insinuating rather than lying.  But my role on this board has already changed.  I've always enjoyed the buddies aspect of Languish, but the tenor is different now than a few years ago.  I generally don't feel like making/staying friends here anymore, all I want to do is launch left-wing attacks on anything and everything.  Out of my genuine "positive" political commitments, for sure, but also out of a lot personal despair and hopelessness unrelated to the forum. 

I get this. Since I've been back here at Languish, I've remembered a bit what was so maddening about it: the opportunities for coming to an understanding are so rare, while the people declaring victory because they caught a typo or twisted someone's words and crushed the resulting argument are Legion.

But I work in a nonprofit where political discussion of any stripe is frowned on (might offend donors) and so there's not many other places I can go to get some intelligent - if not necessarily educational - political discourse. So here I am.

Yes, the tone is much less happy here in the last two years. 

[Caliga]

 

[Ed Anger]

I'M LEAFING.

[Josephus]

Did the UC-Davis pepper spray incident miss this thread, or did it get its own?



"From Davis to Greece, fuck the police!" 

Those Syrians really have to stop doing that to their own...wait....that's not Syria is it?

[Neil]

I don't know, but I am pretty sure that the continuum of force does not go from "Do nothing" to "Pepper spray or just shoot them".

My comment is solely directed at your claim that pepper spraying "supposed to be like a gun in terms of when you're supposed to use it."

That is just laughably wrong.

No, wait.  That's a good idea.

Then, the cops can just roll up to the Occupiers, shout 'Disperse, fuckers!', and then start blasting.

[Berkut]

  Tasers and guns are definitely used to "catch the bad guy" in situations that aren't solely self-defense.  So is pepper spray.  Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Cops don't like to put their hands on people.  Leads to lawsuits.  And, they're usually out of shape and have forgotten their come-along tactics they learned in the academy and forget the 8 hours of in-service training they usually skip every year.
Going straight to the baton or the taser or the OC spray isn't the usual doctrine, it's just really laziness.

Don't "come along" tactics imply some kind of pain hold anyway?

Where does zapping someone with pepper spray fit into the continuum of force?

I would think that putting your hands on someone to force them to move has vastly greater potential for actual harm than pepper spray, which is painful but cannot do permanent damage, so far as I know.

I think the outrage is more over the casualness with which it was employed - the police officer just seems kind of "ho-hum, I guess I will blast all these people indiscriminately with this here pepper spray now..."

[Neil]

Those Syrians really have to stop doing that to their own...wait....that's not Syria is it?

Yeah, because pepper spray and bullets are the same thing.

[frunk]

Most people do not realize that the majority of Solidarity's demands were labour related and economical (such as minimum wage or working time rules) rather than political in nature. Solidarity was a trade union. It's funny when you see Walesa mentioned in the same breath as Reagan or Thatcher.

Edit: I know/suspect you know this. That's more for the benefit of the ignorami.

Considering Communism supposedly represents the working class, a trade union strike can't help but be political regardless of its demands.

[garbon]

If only we espoused more liberal beliefs...then we would be happier!

Of course, then we'd be the dicks complaining about a man from Iowa posting his thoughts as he's like totally ruining the vibe, man.