Breaking: Turkey expels Israeli ambassador

[Sheilbh]

Well, always keep in mind who a politican is saying these stuff to.

He said it in an interview to an Egyptian TV channel

[Tamas]

Well, always keep in mind who a politican is saying these stuff to.

He said it in an interview to an Egyptian TV channel

ok then

[Razgovory]

Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.

I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method.  Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though.  Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.

[derspiess]

And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.

It's not as big a deal as you think.

[Viking]

Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.

I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method.  Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though.  Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.

So... how do you define science then? Nothing in the Baconian Method or Inductive Reasoning (usually considered the philosophical pillars of science in the 17th century) does not exist in Greek Philosophy. The Ionian Enlightenment Philosophers were not only methodological materialists, but philosophical materialists as well, Aristotle was without a doubt the first modernist (though maybe not a materialist) and the Library of Alexandria systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos. Science is systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos imho.

modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
materialism - the belief that all that exists is material

[Tamas]

And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.

It's not as big a deal as you think.

On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .

[Martinus]

A secular state respects all religions

This line is a classic example showing why the religious do not understand what "secular" means. This statement is worthless, when it comes to secularism, when it does not also add that it respects the non-religious worldview.

[Martinus]

And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.

It's not as big a deal as you think.

On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .

It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.

You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.

[Tamas]

And I would argue that the religiousness of the American public life is the greatest drawback of that country. I cannot name an other first world country, where evolution can be so mainstreamly challenged by one of the two leading political powers.

It's not as big a deal as you think.

On it's own it may not be a big deal, but it is an excellent example for the general state of things. .

It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.

You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.

Well, supporting a state or not is an ideological/emotional preference. There may be less grounds to like North Korea than the Netherlands, but still both preferences are subjective no matter what they are, be it nationalism, love of personal freedom, or communist nuttery. These are all subjective things, so religion has their fair place with them. (not to say that people can't be judged by others based on their preference in this matter)

Stuff like denying evolution is entirely different however, because that is a scientific fact. You can debate about wether it is good to have a Stalinist regime rather than a liberal democracy, or to tolerate gays or force them to hiding. At the end of the debate one of the choices will be enacted. But no matter how much you quote Genesis, evolution will remain a fact.

[Martinus]

Well to me supporting a state *because* it's where a mythical battle of angels and demons is going to be fought and we need to help it come faster is way cooky-er than believing long time ago god made humans from clay.

[Oexmelin]

modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world

I am curious: where do you get that definition of modernism from ?

[Valmy]

Well to me supporting a state *because* it's where a mythical battle of angels and demons is going to be fought and we need to help it come faster is way cooky-er than believing long time ago god made humans from clay.

Well considering support for Israel is possibly the only thing that every political faction in the US seem to agree on I am not sure that particular reason to support them is particularly influential.

[Viking]

modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world

I am curious: where do you get that definition of modernism from ?

Bertrand Russel's History of Western Civilization. But, honestly it is a really really bad word to use for anything since the etymology is "of the present time". The word describes different new ideas for different fields. Philosophical Modernism has nothing to do with Art Modernism.

But, honestly, I use the word a catch all for enlightenment ideas which survived the romantic counter-enlightenment and exist today in science and analytical philosophy. My short definition is pretty good at collecting those ideas together and obviously defining my usage of the word was necessary to avoid confusion.

[Razgovory]

Yes, in the same way I consider slightly fermented bread juice to be beer, old grape juice to be wine, distilled grape juice, which they need to add anise to to make it drinkable, to be spirits, abd a misunderstood banality from rabbis to be human equality.

I would consider Science to be born around the 17th century with the scientific method.  Putting the invention of Science back that far has some interesting results though.  Results I'm not sure you would be happy with.

So... how do you define science then? Nothing in the Baconian Method or Inductive Reasoning (usually considered the philosophical pillars of science in the 17th century) does not exist in Greek Philosophy. The Ionian Enlightenment Philosophers were not only methodological materialists, but philosophical materialists as well, Aristotle was without a doubt the first modernist (though maybe not a materialist) and the Library of Alexandria systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos. Science is systematized modernist methodological materialist inquiry into the nature of the cosmos imho.

modernism - the belief that all that can be known can be known by examining the material world
materialism - the belief that all that exists is material

I define science as the systematic acquisition of knowledge through the scientific method.  The Greeks did systematize knowledge but came to many of their conclusions through intuition rather then experimentation. This was okay in pure mathematics, but less so for things like biology or chemistry. As a result their knowledge was often of limited use.  They sat around wondering if Achilles could in fact out pace a turtle rather then give much thought to were bugs come from (they thought they just spontaneously arouse from dirt).  I would say they were not "Modernist" and most were not materialist in the modern sense of the word.  Democritus is a perfect example of this.  His theory of atoms is somewhat similar to the idea of modern elements.  He came to his conclusions through deductive reasoning not experimentation.  His theory wasn't very useful.  It didn't make predictions on how to separate elements or bind them together or such.  The modern theory of atoms does, and is quite useful several fields.

[Razgovory]

It shows the general idiocy of the religious, however for me the breaking point, when it comes to the US, is the fact that there is a portion of the populace there who support Israel specifically because of Biblical reasons.

You can be a retarded rube who rejects science as much as you like, but when your idiotic worldview informs your international policy choices, shit gets real.

As opposed to the enlightened anti-semitism of Europe which dictates how they view Israel.