Breaking: Turkey expels Israeli ambassador

[Tamas]

You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.

Lieberman and his party aren't at all religious, which is cause of a big divide within Israeli society.  As Siegey points out he's more of a racist, ultra-natonalist.  His party's been pushing (unsuccessfully) for loyalty oaths and has (successfully) banned opposition to the blockade.  I think they're also trying to investigate left-wing NGOs and charities for, in effect, giving comfort to the enemy.

It seems he can't get a break though.  Apparently the PKK are demanding an apology from Israel for helping the Turks arrest their leader back in the 80s or 90s

[Valmy]

You are wrong. My anti-Israelism is not based in anti-semitism but hatred of right wing, nationalistic and religious-heavy ideologies.

Because their enemies are left wing international secularists?  I just figured the Israelis were trying to fit in better in the neighborhood.

[Neil]

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."

Words fail.

I would love to see Israel help Kurds so Turkey can invoke article 5 of the NATO treaty over this. 

Yeah, because then when the western countries abandon NATO because they won't fight Israel, Poland can be a part of Russia again.

[Razgovory]

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman plans to hold meetings with the head of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a group which has maintained an armed struggle against the Turkish government since 1984 and is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Word of the meeting was published on Ynet.com which also suggested that the the PKK might ask Lieberman for military aid. The proposed meeting, which would add additional stress to Israel's tense relationship with Turkey following Turkey's recent decision to expel Israel's ambassador from Ankara, was met by cautious remarks from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office. Haaretz reports that the Prime Minister's office did not confirm or deny Lieberman's retaliatory plan but called for restraint with regards to statements concerning Israel's relationship with Turkey, stating, "Our policy was and remains to prevent a breakdown of relations with Turkey and easing the tensions between the countries."

Words fail.

See, this is the shit I was talking about.  It's like Lieberman is trying to sabotage relations.  Israel's position has always been precarious.  Less so now then it has in the past but still precarious.  A country like China or France can get away with doing stupid shit like this.  There is little risk.  Israel doesn't have that luxury.  Missteps in foreign relations can destroy Israel.

[The Larch]

Have you guys seen the videos that Lieberman's ministry just posted in youtube?

http://youtu.be/QAuBc_cbXo0

http://youtu.be/XGYxLWUKwWo

They're presented by Danny Ayalon, Lieberman's deputy, and explain the israeli-palestinian conflict (1st video about the West Bank, 2nd video about the peace process) with the help of some nice Fallout-esque cartoons.

[Neil]

A state founded through terrorism must endure terrorism, as they've legitimized it.  It's the same reason that the US has to endure violent, atavistic nonsense like the Second Amendment.

[dps]

A state founded through terrorism must endure terrorism, as they've legitimized it.  It's the same reason that the US has to endure violent, atavistic nonsense like the Second Amendment.

Freedom isn't something we endure, it's something we not only embrace, but demand.  A monarchist such as yourself will never understand this.

[Sheilbh]

Danny Ayalon of course publically humiliated the Turkish ambassador a couple of years ago.  Labor were still in coalition then and one of their cabinet ministers was sent to Ankara to try and patch relations up, saying the behaviour was 'uncalled for' and even President Peres apologised and said it was the misjudgements of 'one man, not of the state'.  Eventually Ayalon had to apologise too.

[Razgovory]

Danny Ayalon of course publically humiliated the Turkish ambassador a couple of years ago.  Labor were still in coalition then and one of their cabinet ministers was sent to Ankara to try and patch relations up, saying the behaviour was 'uncalled for' and even President Peres apologised and said it was the misjudgements of 'one man, not of the state'.  Eventually Ayalon had to apologise too.

Danny Ayalon is another useless idiot.  He's of the same party as Leiberman isn't he?  Those guys are going to destroy Israel is they don't watch out.  I'm not using hyperbole here.  Israel can't afford deliberately antagonizing it's few allies.  I mean, you'd think these guys were secretly Palestinian agents provocateurs.

[Razgovory]

While I dissapprove of this escalation by the Israeli FM, I would like to hear the difference between supporting a Kurdish terrorist organization, and blockade running to support Hamas.

None really.  They are both bad ideas.  Admittedly the Kurds are a separatist group while Hamas is not (at least I don't think so), but in practice they are pretty similar.  And it's a tremendously bad idea.

[Sheilbh]

Danny Ayalon is another useless idiot.  He's of the same party as Leiberman isn't he?  Those guys are going to destroy Israel is they don't watch out.  I'm not using hyperbole here.  Israel can't afford deliberately antagonizing it's few allies.  I mean, you'd think these guys were secretly Palestinian agents provocateurs.

Same party. 

I agree.  I'm very supportive of Israel as a democratic Jewish state and I think the behaviour of this government has been genuinely very damaging.  This is a time when Israel's needs giants and it's got pygmies.  It takes a lot to make Olmert look like a statesman, but I think it's happened.

And I think it's worth saying that this problem isn't just Lieberman and Ayalon, it's Netanyahu too as I think this Jeffrey Goldberg article suggests (worth noting he's pro-Obama and pro-Kadima):
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-06/robert-gates-says-israel-is-an-ungrateful-ally-jeffrey-goldberg.html

Israel have and will probably always have Congress's support, but when they're losing everyone else I just don't think it's sustainable.  In that sense I think America's support of Israel has almost been a hindrance.  And for what it's worth my view is roughly the same as Gates.  Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.

[Ancient Demon]

Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.

What friends are they burning their bridges to?

[Razgovory]

Israel deserves support because it's the right thing to do but her leadership are endangering her future and burning bridges with her friends around the world.

What friends are they burning their bridges to?

Well the Turks for one.  Israel has had a reasonably good relationship with Turkey and the current government seems hell bent on destroying that relationship.  The Saudis are another.  Officially the Saudis hate Israel, but they have been working together on the sly.  The Israeli government revealing this working relationship sabotaged the whole thing.   Something that is just baffling.  Bibi's government has tried to embarrass the US president as well, (no clue why), but Obama just grinned and bared it.  Relations with Europe have become more strained but that's not entirely Israel's fault.

[Sheilbh]

What friends are they burning their bridges to?

As Raz says the Turks and the Saudis.  Almost all of Latin America have now said they support the Palestinians on the UN declaration.  Europe's still the key battleground on that with Germany and Italy opposing the vote while the French and Spanish will probably vote for it and for all the snide remarks European governments have always been generally pro-Israel.

But they've also upset, as that article suggests, all sorts of politicians in the US Administration (and Bibi has history on this) and when you're upsetting everyone from Gates and Emanuel through Clinton and Daley I'd suggest you're making mistakes in your behaviour. 

As I say the sad thing is that a creative Israeli Prime Minister a leader with some sense beyond political tactics could have made this quite useful.  Goldberg recently wrote that as this Palestinian declaration is based on a two state solution Israel should have basically changed it into challenging the UN to declare its understanding of Israel, within 1967 borders (which won't happen), as the national home of the Jewish people.  A smart leader could have made this about whether Arab states and Iran would be willing to acknowledge Israel in the UN for the sake of a Palestinian state.

[Tamas]

Correct me if I am wrong but it was the Turks who decided to draw Israeli aggro, in an effort to switch their focus from the EU to Muslim dominance.
Of course, this Russian prick of a jewish FM is way too keen to play their game, but hey.

Speaking of Muslim dominance, this could be an interesting play in the long run. Turkey is entering a game with at least two players already (Saudis and Iran), isn't it?