Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Barrister]

I agree with "don't hat the untion because it got a good deal" - but instead I'll hate the system that gave rise to that deal.  And unfortunately there's only way that system can change - and thats by the government changing the laws.  If the current system is tilted towards public sector unions then you can't expect the employer to get a fair deal by simply renegotiating.  You have to tackle the underlying system.

I have no issue if Paterson wants to take a tough stance on government waste and budget issues. My main problem is that he signed the contract than wants to tackle the problem.

Government waste is a completely different issue.

And governments have the ability to change the rules mid-stream.  That's why they are governments.   

[Admiral Yi]

I have no issue if Paterson wants to take a tough stance on government waste and budget issues. My main problem is that he signed the contract than wants to tackle the problem.

The contract was negotiated before the crisis hit and state revenues went in the shitter, right?

[Strix]

Government waste is a completely different issue.

And governments have the ability to change the rules mid-stream.  That's why they are governments.   

No, I disagree. A government doesn't have the right to ignore/change contracts that it has signed because they turn out to be a nuisance later. If they start to do so than who would do business with them knowing they aren't negotiating in good faith.

You're a prosecutor, so what happens if I agree to get my car fixed than when I get it back I tell the mechanic, "No, I will only pay $50 for labor and not $55, so suck it up" than drive away in my car?

Will the DA tell me that I was taking a tough stand on outrageous labor prices in the business sector, or will he have something else to say? 

[Strix]

The contract was negotiated before the crisis hit and state revenues went in the shitter, right?

No, the government knew what was coming. There were several plans to deal with the cost of offsetting state employee raises but Paterson chose to go after the unions.

[Barrister]

No, I disagree. A government doesn't have the right to ignore/change contracts that it has signed because they turn out to be a nuisance later. If they start to do so than who would do business with them knowing they aren't negotiating in good faith.

You're a prosecutor, so what happens if I agree to get my car fixed than when I get it back I tell the mechanic, "No, I will only pay $50 for labor and not $55, so suck it up" than drive away in my car?

Will the DA tell me that I was taking a tough stand on outrageous labor prices in the business sector, or will he have something else to say? 

Well since the government has the authority to pass alws in order to re-write contracts, and you do not, I would say there's a very key difference...

[Strix]

Well since the government has the authority to pass alws in order to re-write contracts, and you do not, I would say there's a very key difference...

And that is the rub right now in NY. No one is certain if the governor has the power to ignore/tear up the contracts or not. He is playing chicken with the Unions hoping they blink before it gets that far. If he goes that route and loses....

[Admiral Yi]

No, the government knew what was coming.

When was the contract signed?

[Berkut]

Than again, according to Berkut, anything requiring less than a Master's Degree is unskilled or low skilled labor at best. So, I am not sure where you fit in that spectrum.

Well, you certainly have the blatant lying part of the job down pat. A lack if integrity - is that important to being a parole officer?

Funny that you are lecturing others on their lack of moral character while you lie out of your ass - and you even know you are lying.

How so?

Look at Strix as a fine example - he is making nearly $80,000 doing nearly unskilled or low skilled work that requires nothing more than a bachelors degree, and the big beef he has with the governor is that the governor doesn't want to give him yet another yearly raise at a time when the state is looking at tens of billions of dollars in budget shortfall.

You clearly stated that unskilled and low skilled work requires nothing more than a bachelors degree. That would mean that skilled requires a more advanced degree i.e. a Master's or higher.

No, I said the work that YOU do is low skilled and only requires a bachelors degree. But you know that.

[Strix]

No, the government knew what was coming.

When was the contract signed?

April or May of 2008.

[Berkut]

NO bitterness at all, and no, I have never worked for the state.

I simply do not think for a moment that people who work for the state are remotely fairly compensated for what they do, in any measure that is not completely subjective.

I have immense respect for law enforcement, but that doesn't mean that I think any number they can browbeat a politician into is "fair". You guys are paid based strictly on the political consequences for politicians if they refuse to pay you what you demand. That isn't right.

It all depends on your union. Parole doesn't belong to a law enforcement union because of the social worker aspect of our job. The bargaining unit I am associated with is Professional, Scientific and Technical Services. If they let us join NYSCOPBA than I'd be making a lot more with better benefits (and wouldn't have the thought of only 60% disability running through my head as I jump fences and wrestle with parolees on the ground).

And, yes, it is right. The point of a free market is to get fair market value for what goods or service you provide.

But that is just it - the Union is circumventing the free market. You are not paid based on what the free market is willing to pay you, you are paid based on a completely fake amrket of political bullshit.

Don't hate a union for getting a good deal. Hate the person who gave it to them.

No, I will simply decide that they system that allowed the stupid deal is broken and needs to be fixed.

Which is my issue with Paterson. He didn't have to sign the last contract. Governors have refused to do so in the past, and union workers continue the current contract until a new one is worked out (with the new agreement being back dated).

So? It was signed under different terms than what exists now. That is the problem with these contracts - they are signed under certain conditions, with no ability to change if the conditions are not as rosy as everyone insists they will be. You guys end up getting paid as if the gravy train must and will always continue forever - which is not surprising, since your compensation is determined by politics, not any kind of market (free or otherwise). It is just like the people who right budgets when things are dandy, and assume that they will always be dandy forever, and we can afford to commit to ever increasing spending.

Do you think it right to be able to change the terms of a contract halfway through? No, of course it isn't. If you want to change the terms than you need to negotiate. Paterson is unwilling to do so.

Incorrect, he was and is willing to negotiate, but the unions refuse. So he will just lay them off, and they will repay him by spending incredible funds to make sure he is not re-elected. This is politics, not a market.

You guys are voting yourselves more and more money and sweetheart deals while the ship is sinking.

[Strix]

Than again, according to Berkut, anything requiring less than a Master's Degree is unskilled or low skilled labor at best. So, I am not sure where you fit in that spectrum.

Well, you certainly have the blatant lying part of the job down pat. A lack if integrity - is that important to being a parole officer?

Funny that you are lecturing others on their lack of moral character while you lie out of your ass - and you even know you are lying.

How so?

Look at Strix as a fine example - he is making nearly $80,000 doing nearly unskilled or low skilled work that requires nothing more than a bachelors degree, and the big beef he has with the governor is that the governor doesn't want to give him yet another yearly raise at a time when the state is looking at tens of billions of dollars in budget shortfall.

You clearly stated that unskilled and low skilled work requires nothing more than a bachelors degree. That would mean that skilled requires a more advanced degree i.e. a Master's or higher.

No, I said the work that YOU do is low skilled and only requires a bachelors degree. But you know that.

Ok, Berkut. If you say so than it must be true.

[Admiral Yi]

April or May of 2008.

That doesn't sound like "they knew it was coming" time to me.

[Strix]

Incorrect, he was and is willing to negotiate, but the unions refuse. So he will just lay them off, and they will repay him by spending incredible funds to make sure he is not re-elected. This is politics, not a market.

You guys are voting yourselves more and more money and sweetheart deals while the ship is sinking.

Ok Berkut, you obviously know more than the Union heads. Despite the Unions willing to grant concessions in lag pay and agreeing to letting positions go via attrition they are clearly not negotiating with Paterson whose only stance is lose the raises, period.

[Strix]

April or May of 2008.

That doesn't sound like "they knew it was coming" time to me.

They did which is why it took so long for the contract to be negotiated and signed. They don't do the budget year to year in isolation which is why they can predict shortfalls in the next few years.

[Barrister]

Incorrect, he was and is willing to negotiate, but the unions refuse. So he will just lay them off, and they will repay him by spending incredible funds to make sure he is not re-elected. This is politics, not a market.

You guys are voting yourselves more and more money and sweetheart deals while the ship is sinking.

Ok Berkut, you obviously know more than the Union heads. Despite the Unions willing to grant concessions in lag pay and agreeing to letting positions go via attrition they are clearly not negotiating with Paterson whose only stance is lose the raises, period.

Those don't sound like major concessions to me...


Strix, I don't know the specific issues in NY State employees.  It could well be that Gov. Patterson is being unreasonable, asking for too many concessions.  But your reply of "a contract is a contract, end of story" is quite unconvincing to me.