Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

Started by DontSayBanana, April 16, 2009, 11:12:12 PM

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Pro-union or anti-union?

For
29 (50.9%)
Against
28 (49.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Strix

Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2009, 12:06:50 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 08:55:30 AM
That is why we are paid what we are paid.

I think you've already clearly demonstrated that that isn't the reason why.

Yes, we clearly want someone of your demeanor and personality to be safeguarding the public from the criminals let out by the more liberal elements of our society.

Good news, you wouldn't even qualify for the job.  :lol:
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

garbon

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:40:12 PM
Yes, we clearly want someone of your demeanor and personality to be safeguarding the public from the criminals let out by the more liberal elements of our society.

Good news, you wouldn't even qualify for the job.  :lol:

Why would I want such a lousy job? :huh:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Strix

Quote from: garbon on April 19, 2009, 01:41:57 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:40:12 PM
Yes, we clearly want someone of your demeanor and personality to be safeguarding the public from the criminals let out by the more liberal elements of our society.

Good news, you wouldn't even qualify for the job.  :lol:

Why would I want such a lousy job? :huh:

That's true. Your indecisiveness and lack of moral character would suggest that you're much better suited to probably an Academic job.  Protecting the public safety and providing a useful service to the masses probably wouldn't be satisfying to you.

Than again, according to Berkut, anything requiring less than a Master's Degree is unskilled or low skilled labor at best. So, I am not sure where you fit in that spectrum.

"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

Berkut

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 09:56:54 AM
Why the bitterness Berkut? Did you not get hired by the State at some point? Or is it hard for you to comprehend that skilled labor isn't only based on how well you can read a technical manual?



NO bitterness at all, and no, I have never worked for the state.

I simply do not think for a moment that people who work for the state are remotely fairly compensated for what they do, in any measure that is not completely subjective.

I have immense respect for law enforcement, but that doesn't mean that I think any number they can browbeat a politician into is "fair". You guys are paid based strictly on the political consequences for politicians if they refuse to pay you what you demand. That isn't right.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Berkut

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:46:45 PM
Than again, according to Berkut, anything requiring less than a Master's Degree is unskilled or low skilled labor at best. So, I am not sure where you fit in that spectrum.



Well, you certainly have the blatant lying part of the job down pat. A lack if integrity - is that important to being a parole officer?

Funny that you are lecturing others on their lack of moral character while you lie out of your ass - and you even know you are lying.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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garbon

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:46:45 PM
That's true. Your indecisiveness and lack of moral character would suggest that you're much better suited to probably an Academic job.

Why the fuck would I want an Academic job?

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:46:45 PMProtecting the public safety and providing a useful service to the masses probably wouldn't be satisfying to you.

Spot on. Only the delusional take comfort in that.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Neil

I think that based on the strength of this poll, we can safely abolish unions.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.

Strix

Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2009, 01:48:36 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 01:46:45 PM
Than again, according to Berkut, anything requiring less than a Master's Degree is unskilled or low skilled labor at best. So, I am not sure where you fit in that spectrum.



Well, you certainly have the blatant lying part of the job down pat. A lack if integrity - is that important to being a parole officer?

Funny that you are lecturing others on their lack of moral character while you lie out of your ass - and you even know you are lying.

How so?

Quote from: BerkutLook at Strix as a fine example - he is making nearly $80,000 doing nearly unskilled or low skilled work that requires nothing more than a bachelors degree, and the big beef he has with the governor is that the governor doesn't want to give him yet another yearly raise at a time when the state is looking at tens of billions of dollars in budget shortfall.

You clearly stated that unskilled and low skilled work requires nothing more than a bachelors degree. That would mean that skilled requires a more advanced degree i.e. a Master's or higher.

"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

Strix

Quote from: Berkut on April 19, 2009, 01:47:26 PM
NO bitterness at all, and no, I have never worked for the state.

I simply do not think for a moment that people who work for the state are remotely fairly compensated for what they do, in any measure that is not completely subjective.

I have immense respect for law enforcement, but that doesn't mean that I think any number they can browbeat a politician into is "fair". You guys are paid based strictly on the political consequences for politicians if they refuse to pay you what you demand. That isn't right.

It all depends on your union. Parole doesn't belong to a law enforcement union because of the social worker aspect of our job. The bargaining unit I am associated with is Professional, Scientific and Technical Services. If they let us join NYSCOPBA than I'd be making a lot more with better benefits (and wouldn't have the thought of only 60% disability running through my head as I jump fences and wrestle with parolees on the ground).

And, yes, it is right. The point of a free market is to get fair market value for what goods or service you provide. Don't hate a union for getting a good deal. Hate the person who gave it to them. Which is my issue with Paterson. He didn't have to sign the last contract. Governors have refused to do so in the past, and union workers continue the current contract until a new one is worked out (with the new agreement being back dated).

Do you think it right to be able to change the terms of a contract halfway through? No, of course it isn't. If you want to change the terms than you need to negotiate. Paterson is unwilling to do so.



"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

Barrister

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 02:30:18 PM
It all depends on your union. Parole doesn't belong to a law enforcement union because of the social worker aspect of our job. The bargaining unit I am associated with is Professional, Scientific and Technical Services. If they let us join NYSCOPBA than I'd be making a lot more with better benefits (and wouldn't have the thought of only 60% disability running through my head as I jump fences and wrestle with parolees on the ground).

And, yes, it is right. The point of a free market is to get fair market value for what goods or service you provide. Don't hate a union for getting a good deal. Hate the person who gave it to them. Which is my issue with Paterson. He didn't have to sign the last contract. Governors have refused to do so in the past, and union workers continue the current contract until a new one is worked out (with the new agreement being back dated).

Do you think it right to be able to change the terms of a contract halfway through? No, of course it isn't. If you want to change the terms than you need to negotiate. Paterson is unwilling to do so.

First of all Strixy you know I greatly respectthe work of parole officers.  Hell my wife is currently working as a probation officer, which basically does the same thing (parole officers only deal with inmates released after 2+ year sentences, which are rare here).  There's also no way I'd call it an unskilled position.

I agree with "don't hat the untion because it got a good deal" - but instead I'll hate the system that gave rise to that deal.  And unfortunately there's only way that system can change - and thats by the government changing the laws.  If the current system is tilted towards public sector unions then you can't expect the employer to get a fair deal by simply renegotiating.  You have to tackle the underlying system.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

The Brain

The Prosecutor wants to change the law? Isn't that treason of the worst kind?
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

grumbler

Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 02:11:18 PM
Quote from: BerkutLook at Strix as a fine example - he is making nearly $80,000 doing nearly unskilled or low skilled work that requires nothing more than a bachelors degree, and the big beef he has with the governor is that the governor doesn't want to give him yet another yearly raise at a time when the state is looking at tens of billions of dollars in budget shortfall.

You clearly stated that unskilled and low skilled work requires nothing more than a bachelors degree. That would mean that skilled requires a more advanced degree i.e. a Master's or higher.
I take it that reading comprehension isn't a significant part of your job.  If it is, then I change my vote in the poll because you are clearly grossly unqualified for your job.

Berkut's comment was clearly about your work, not work in general. 

He even said "takle Strix as [an] example" and you still didn't get it!   :lol:
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

Quote from: Barrister on April 19, 2009, 03:30:44 PM
Quote from: Strix on April 19, 2009, 02:30:18 PM
It all depends on your union. Parole doesn't belong to a law enforcement union because of the social worker aspect of our job. The bargaining unit I am associated with is Professional, Scientific and Technical Services. If they let us join NYSCOPBA than I'd be making a lot more with better benefits (and wouldn't have the thought of only 60% disability running through my head as I jump fences and wrestle with parolees on the ground).

And, yes, it is right. The point of a free market is to get fair market value for what goods or service you provide. Don't hate a union for getting a good deal. Hate the person who gave it to them. Which is my issue with Paterson. He didn't have to sign the last contract. Governors have refused to do so in the past, and union workers continue the current contract until a new one is worked out (with the new agreement being back dated).

Do you think it right to be able to change the terms of a contract halfway through? No, of course it isn't. If you want to change the terms than you need to negotiate. Paterson is unwilling to do so.

First of all Strixy you know I greatly respectthe work of parole officers.  Hell my wife is currently working as a probation officer, which basically does the same thing (parole officers only deal with inmates released after 2+ year sentences, which are rare here).  There's also no way I'd call it an unskilled position.

I agree with "don't hat the untion because it got a good deal" - but instead I'll hate the system that gave rise to that deal.  And unfortunately there's only way that system can change - and thats by the government changing the laws.  If the current system is tilted towards public sector unions then you can't expect the employer to get a fair deal by simply renegotiating.  You have to tackle the underlying system.

You hate Capitalism?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Strix

Quote from: grumbler on April 19, 2009, 03:45:55 PM
Berkut's comment was clearly about your work, not work in general. 

He even said "takle Strix as [an] example" and you still didn't get it!   :lol:

I got it. He basically was saying that I am doing unskilled and/or low skilled work because it only requires a bachelor's degree. That reads to me as bachelor degree or lower is unskilled and/or low skilled labor at best but perhaps it reads differently to you.
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher

Strix

Quote from: Barrister on April 19, 2009, 03:30:44 PM
I agree with "don't hat the untion because it got a good deal" - but instead I'll hate the system that gave rise to that deal.  And unfortunately there's only way that system can change - and thats by the government changing the laws.  If the current system is tilted towards public sector unions then you can't expect the employer to get a fair deal by simply renegotiating.  You have to tackle the underlying system.

I have no issue if Paterson wants to take a tough stance on government waste and budget issues. My main problem is that he signed the contract than wants to tackle the problem.


"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." - Margaret Thatcher