Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Strix]

Tell me Strix, can you honestly say that if you were not a public employee, you would have the exact same stand on this issue?

The reason we are arguing is simple. It is hard to separate government waste/corruption/inefficiency from what government employees are paid. Why is it hard? I believe it is hard because the pay ultimately comes from people's tax money.

In any organization you will have those overpaid, those underpaid, those deserving, and those not deserving. I can honestly say that if I were not a public employee that I would have the same exact stand in regards to parole and other law enforcement officials that work for the State. 

As a public employee I can honestly say there are sectors of the state government that are overpaid. I doubt you'd have to scratch too hard to find dirt and issues with SUNY and CUNY.

Unions have pros and cons. I have worked under both systems, and for the type of work I do a Union is a godsend.

[Strix]

That's not true.  The state's determination of what the appropriate pay rate is is subject to approval from the unions, who have the ability through voting, lobbying, physical intimidation and sympathy strikes to impose political and economic costs on the employer.

If the system were totally free then the state would just offer terms and the labor market would either fill the jobs or it wouldn't.

You have the cart leading the horse. The State always has the option of setting what pay rate they feel is appropriate. The State doesn't have to sign any given labor contract. And, you are correct, unions attempt to get a fair wage and benefits through votes and lobbying (which is why they exist). If the unions asked for something outrageous than it's doubtful a politician would be willing to back their requests. If the union requests are reasonable than they have a good chance of garnering support.

And the system is totally free, the state can offer terms and the labor market will fill the jobs accordingly. The state adjusts their offer accordingly to get the level of labor that they desire i.e. you pay more for a college degree than a GED. If the labor market isn't willing to accept what is offered than they are free to go elsewhere.

We are also talking about public employee unions. Physical intimidation and strikes don't work as well as they might in the private sector.

[Berkut]

But in a free market, the rate that is set for labour is determined by the market, not by votes and political bullying.

There is no way you can call the state of New York public employment any kind of free market. If you insist on saying it is, you are only betraying your inability to understand what the term "free market" means.

It means that if an employer refuses to pay a wage, then the employees recourse is to find some other employer willing to pay that wage - not vote them out of office. In a free market, the only force acting on the employer (withing reason) is the market.

[Berkut]

Tell me Strix, can you honestly say that if you were not a public employee, you would have the exact same stand on this issue?

The reason we are arguing is simple. It is hard to separate government waste/corruption/inefficiency from what government employees are paid. Why is it hard? I believe it is hard because the pay ultimately comes from people's tax money.

We are not talking about government waste/corruption/inefficiency, we are talking about how public employees unions are a travesty. There is no need for them, there is no market justification for them, there is no reason for them to exist except so public employees can extort greater than market rates from the government.

It isn't like the government is out there engaged in slave labor or grossly unfair wage or living conditions that they can enforce via some form of monopoly, such that organization of labor is the only recourse.

[alfred russel]

We are not talking about government waste/corruption/inefficiency, we are talking about how public employees unions are a travesty. There is no need for them, there is no market justification for them, there is no reason for them to exist except so public employees can extort greater than market rates from the government.

It isn't like the government is out there engaged in slave labor or grossly unfair wage or living conditions that they can enforce via some form of monopoly, such that organization of labor is the only recourse.

On the one hand, public unions are less necessary because the government doesn't have the same pressures to hold down wages and have substandard work conditions that private companies have.

But I do think they have a place, because public employees are often are portrayed in a bad light, and their politician bosses don't always have a reason to stand up for them. I would hate to think that a law enforcement officer involved in a questionable shooting wouldn't have anyone to stand up for their job when the media fueled lynch mob came calling.

[Neil]

But I do think they have a place, because public employees are often are portrayed in a bad light, and their politician bosses don't always have a reason to stand up for them. I would hate to think that a law enforcement officer involved in a questionable shooting wouldn't have anyone to stand up for their job when the media fueled lynch mob came calling.

And this is key.

[Admiral Yi]

The State doesn't have to sign any given labor contract.

The state doesn't have to sign any given contract in the same way that you don't have to buy Girl Scout cookies from me if I threaten to burn down your house if you don't.

[PDH]

The state doesn't have to sign any given contract in the same way that you don't have to buy Girl Scout cookies from me if I threaten to burn down your house if you don't.

Christ, you and your Iowa Nazi Girls Scouts must clean up on the ol' cookie sales.

[garbon]

I would hate to think that a law enforcement officer involved in a questionable shooting wouldn't have anyone to stand up for their job when the media fueled lynch mob came calling.

I wouldn't.  Besides, it doesn't seem to stop much.

[garbon]

Christ, you and your Iowa Nazi Girls Scouts must clean up on the ol' cookie sales.

[Barrister]

and only know that I wouldn't do if for only $77k/year

Especially if that is one's salary after 7 years of experience...

What's depressing is I have 7 years experience, MORE than a bachelor's degree, yet those cheapskates in the Dominion Government pay me less than $77k per year (once you take exchange rate into account)...

[garbon]

That is depressing.

[DGuller]

It took me 5+ years to get into NYS Parole because they only offer the exam every 3-4 years, and they have a very low turnover. The turnover they do have is mainly because of retirements.

I hope your disability benefit covers self-inflicted gunshots to the foot, all three of them.  Lack of turnover and long wait lists are precisely the indicators of a job that pays far above market rates.  You've basically admitted it in those two sentences.

[alfred russel]

and only know that I wouldn't do if for only $77k/year

Especially if that is one's salary after 7 years of experience...

What's depressing is I have 7 years experience, MORE than a bachelor's degree, yet those cheapskates in the Dominion Government pay me less than $77k per year (once you take exchange rate into account)...

Sounds like you need a union.

[Barrister]

and only know that I wouldn't do if for only $77k/year

Especially if that is one's salary after 7 years of experience...

What's depressing is I have 7 years experience, MORE than a bachelor's degree, yet those cheapskates in the Dominion Government pay me less than $77k per year (once you take exchange rate into account)...

Sounds like you need a union.

I have a union.  I'm not a member of it, be the outfit unionized 3-4 years ago.

Government legislated our wages anyways.