Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Barrister]

What's depressing is I have 7 years experience, MORE than a bachelor's degree, yet those cheapskates in the Dominion Government pay me less than $77k per year (once you take exchange rate into account)...

They dont have to pay more because they can fill that position at that pay level.

You don't say...

So stop comlaining.

Never. :p

Well the thing is though that anecdotally I hear that other offices are having a hard time retaining lawyers.  I know even our civil Yukon lawyers have an open spot or two, and seem to have a revolving door of lawyers.  I can only hope that forces the Feds to up our pay - and of course that has nothing to do with the existence of our union.

[crazy canuck]

Well the thing is though that anecdotally I hear that other offices are having a hard time retaining lawyers.  I know even our civil Yukon lawyers have an open spot or two, and seem to have a revolving door of lawyers.  I can only hope that forces the Feds to up our pay - and of course that has nothing to do with the existence of our union.

The unfortunate thing is that firms are laying off a lot of lawyers at the moment so those slots may be filled if any of the unemployed (a lot of commercial lawyers) want to turn to a new field of practice.

[Habbaku]

Big business does the same thing.

No, really? 

[Valmy]

No, really? 

Stay tuned for further deep thoughts from Valmy.

[Barrister]

Well the thing is though that anecdotally I hear that other offices are having a hard time retaining lawyers.  I know even our civil Yukon lawyers have an open spot or two, and seem to have a revolving door of lawyers.  I can only hope that forces the Feds to up our pay - and of course that has nothing to do with the existence of our union.

The unfortunate thing is that firms are laying off a lot of lawyers at the moment so those slots may be filled if any of the unemployed (a lot of commercial lawyers) want to turn to a new field of practice.

Well that is the real issue.

The government will always get applicants for its positions.  But at a certain level you have to think/hope that being a government lawyer takes more than being a warm body - that you need some skills and experience in some pretty particualr areas, and you can't fill all your positions with 1st year lawyers.

We'll see.

[MadImmortalMan]

Well that is the real issue.

The government will always get applicants for its positions.  But at a certain level you have to think/hope that being a government lawyer takes more than being a warm body - that you need some skills and experience in some pretty particualr areas, and you can't fill all your positions with 1st year lawyers.

We'll see.

I'd think that in tough times, it's the safer government jobs people will be looking to snap up. It's the boom times when people are looking for the riskier, high-paying gigs. It seems like these days you'd have downward pressure on salaries for servants of the Crown.

[dps]

But at a certain level you have to think/hope that being a government lawyer takes more than being a warm body - that you need some skills and experience in some pretty particualr areas

That's rich.  Government lawyers are either guys who work for the government because they're willing to take less pay to do a job that they feel serves the greater good, or guys who can't get on at a private law firm.  While the former may in fact be quite skilled, the latter is pretty much the defination of a warm body.

[Barrister]

That's rich.  Government lawyers are either guys who work for the government because they're willing to take less pay to do a job that they feel serves the greater good, or guys who can't get on at a private law firm.  While the former may in fact be quite skilled, the latter is pretty much the defination of a warm body.

And how many government lawyers do you know?

Of the, oh, 100s, most of them actually took the job because of the lifestyle.  Its better hours than private sector work (or at least profitable private sector work), with fewer intrusions on your home life.  Many of them never sought a private sector job, while others (like myself) left private sector jobs because government work was perceived as "better".

You're also missing out on experience.  I don't care if you won the gold medal in law school, government work is quite different from any other kind of work.  You could take the smartest lawyer in the world and it's going to take them, 18 months at minimum to be competent, and several years to be really good (I'm still not there yet, but it's getting closer).

[dps]

That's rich.  Government lawyers are either guys who work for the government because they're willing to take less pay to do a job that they feel serves the greater good, or guys who can't get on at a private law firm.  While the former may in fact be quite skilled, the latter is pretty much the defination of a warm body.

And how many government lawyers do you know?

Of the, oh, 100s, most of them actually took the job because of the lifestyle.  Its better hours than private sector work (or at least profitable private sector work), with fewer intrusions on your home life.  Many of them never sought a private sector job, while others (like myself) left private sector jobs because government work was perceived as "better".

You're also missing out on experience.  I don't care if you won the gold medal in law school, government work is quite different from any other kind of work.  You could take the smartest lawyer in the world and it's going to take them, 18 months at minimum to be competent, and several years to be really good (I'm still not there yet, but it's getting closer).

It was mostly a joke.  I'm in a good mood, so I deliberately left you an opening to claim that you're a public servant willing to forgo a higher salary in order to serve the greater good.  Had I beeen in a bad mood, I would have just said that all government lawyers are guy who couldn't get an offer from a private firm.

EDIT:  Well, I was in a good mood before having to deal with the way this forum handles quoting a post.   

[Barrister]

That's rich.  Government lawyers are either guys who work for the government because they're willing to take less pay to do a job that they feel serves the greater good, or guys who can't get on at a private law firm.  While the former may in fact be quite skilled, the latter is pretty much the defination of a warm body.

And how many government lawyers do you know?

Of the, oh, 100s, most of them actually took the job because of the lifestyle.  Its better hours than private sector work (or at least profitable private sector work), with fewer intrusions on your home life.  Many of them never sought a private sector job, while others (like myself) left private sector jobs because government work was perceived as "better".

You're also missing out on experience.  I don't care if you won the gold medal in law school, government work is quite different from any other kind of work.  You could take the smartest lawyer in the world and it's going to take them, 18 months at minimum to be competent, and several years to be really good (I'm still not there yet, but it's getting closer).

It was mostly a joke.  I'm in a good mood, so I deliberately left you an opening to claim that you're a public servant willing to forgo a higher salary in order to serve the greater good.  Had I beeen in a bad mood, I would have just said that all government lawyers are guy who couldn't get an offer from a private firm.

EDIT:  Well, I was in a good mood before having to deal with the way this forum handles quoting a post.

But evcen if it's a joke I can still play the martyr on Languish, right?

[The Brain]

STFU Barrista Boy.

[alfred russel]

Written employment contracts are rare.  Particularly in at will states.  In non at will states written employment contracts are more common because they are a means of employers and employees defining obligations at the time of termination.  In at will states this is obviously not needed because there are no such obligations.

However, all employees have a contract even if it is just verbal or set out in an offer letter.

btw in Canada there is no notion of at will employment and so all employers are advised to have written contracts specifying what will occur on a termination because the terms implied by law (which can be rebutted by written contracts so long as they conform with minimum standards) are very generous for employees.

When I get home I'm going to find my offer letter and post the at will language. I'm fairly certain it had a statement that the offer terms were at will employment, I essentially have no rights, and the letter did not constitute a contract. I don't think I'll be home until the end of the week, so I will probably be bumping a long dead thread.

[crazy canuck]

When I get home I'm going to find my offer letter and post the at will language. I'm fairly certain it had a statement that the offer terms were at will employment, I essentially have no rights, and the letter did not constitute a contract. I don't think I'll be home until the end of the week, so I will probably be bumping a long dead thread.

You are a bit confused about the meaning of a contract.  the letter is your contract or at least part of your contract.

[viper37]

And how many government lawyers do you know?

Of the, oh, 100s, most of them actually took the job because of the lifestyle.  Its better hours than private sector work (or at least profitable private sector work), with fewer intrusions on your home life.  Many of them never sought a private sector job, while others (like myself) left private sector jobs because government work was perceived as "better".

You're also missing out on experience.  I don't care if you won the gold medal in law school, government work is quite different from any other kind of work.  You could take the smartest lawyer in the world and it's going to take them, 18 months at minimum to be competent, and several years to be really good (I'm still not there yet, but it's getting closer).

that's really the same situation as with any government workers: you have better work conditions than in the private, so this leads to lower wages.  You won't be laid off because of difficult economic times, the times you have to do overtime or simply time without getting paid will be extremely limited, you don't have the pressure of "making money for the firm" at whatever level you may be and you don't have to ease your guilty conscience of having to defend pedophiles or mobsters.

For all those reasons and some more, I see it as totally normal that any government employee receives a lesser paycheck than comparable jobs in the private sector.

[alfred russel]

You are a bit confused about the meaning of a contract.  the letter is your contract or at least part of your contract.

We will see what the letter says, I don't remember exactly. My memory is that it tries to convey that the letter does not confer any rights and that my employment is at will. It may say that the letter is not a contract, but I'll have to get back to you on that.

I think I might be a day laborer, actually. Today I know what my pay is, but tomorrow it may be arbitrarily adjusted up or down, or even cease. Hopefully we have an implied contract that they at least have to fly me home.