Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[grumbler]

I don't even think that would be legal in most countries.

It isn't legal to have them sign the letter, though.  Ross Perot used to have employees sign all kinds of letters obligating them to do things the employer couldn't obligate them to do (like serve for X years after taking training Y) because he knew they wouldn't discover he couldn't enforce the obligation.

[Strix]

I agree with DGuller on this: you aren't helping your case.

New York is an at will state too--if NC can't adequately staff their probation/parole officer positions, that isn't because they are at will, it is probably because they don't pay enough. In the private sector, there are very few employment contracts, even for senior level people. Remember those AIG contracts that were in the news? A former CEO was on TV expressing outrage because no American employee, including him when he was CEO, was given an employment contract. Everything was at will, and that isn't unusual.

Your ignorance of NY and NC state government is not helping yours.

New York is not an "at will" State. The State government cannot terminate union employees "at will" without reasonable cause and due process. This process is outlined in the copy of the contract that each union member receives.

North Carolina is an "at will" State where each employee serves "at the pleasure of the governor". Any state employee can be terminated at any time without due process or reasonable cause. North Carolina employees are prevented from joining or forming unions.

The difference in work environment should be apparent but if it isn't here is a true example. There was a chief who I worked with in NC who would make an officer bring his car to the front of the building at the end of the day so that the supervisor didn't have to walk the 3-4 blocks to get it. That officer could have refused the order to get the car but he would have been fired on the spot because that supervisor was well connected. A supervisor could not get away with that in NY.

EDIT: In NY, the due process required to fire an employee is also covered in the Civil Service laws something that NC does not have.

[Strix]

t isn't like the government is out there engaged in slave labor or grossly unfair wage or living conditions that they can enforce via some form of monopoly, such that organization of labor is the only recourse.

You obviously haven't worked in North Carolina or any of the southern states. 

[Strix]

I hope your disability benefit covers self-inflicted gunshots to the foot, all three of them.  Lack of turnover and long wait lists are precisely the indicators of a job that pays far above market rates.  You've basically admitted it in those two sentences.

No, job satisfaction, reduced stress, and a good mission plan are the reasons for a low turnover rate. Law enforcement has a high burn out rate, and reasonable compensation goes a long ways towards reducing stress and creating job satisfaction.

[alfred russel]

Your ignorance of NY and NC state government is not helping yours.

New York is not an "at will" State.

Strix, sorry for my ignorance. Could you correct the NY State Department of Labor? They seem to be ignorant of this too.

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/faq.shtm#14

Q: Can an employee be fired without due cause?

A: Yes. New York State is an "employment-at-will," state.

[Strix]

I think Patterson is saying that, unless the unions agree to concessions, patterson will, as allowed by contract, terminate employees until the costs of the contract match more closely to the state's resources.  I actually agree with you:  Patterson should not reduce the cost per employee, he should simply slash the number of employees.   Fewer employees will mean, over time, weaker unions, and once the unions are weak the NY government can negotiate contracts that pay reasonable, rather than exorbitant, wages.

Fewer employees will not mean significantly less work done, given slack in the average employee's existing workload.

Actually Paterson lacks the power to fire employees without cause. You should perhaps take the time to read one of the public employee unions contracts with NY state. The only employees he can fire "at will" are upper management (who are not in a union), probationary employees, and non-union workers.

What Paterson will be doing is getting rid of positions and not people.  The 8,700 lay-offs are more of a sham and a logistical nightmare than anything else.  Paterson might cut 150 jobs in Parole but those employees can transfer to other openings in the same organization or can transfer to another organization that has an opening (based on State seniority). So, three KBS (key board specialists aka secretaries) might lose their positions in Rochester but move to openings in Elmira, Farmingdale, and Plattsburgh.

Yes, some people will lose their jobs because the State may run out of alternative openings or they are are unwilling to relocate. Considering NY State hired something like 20,000+ during a hiring freeze I am not sure how many will lose a job if they are willing to make a change.

The main issue will be human suffering and hardship that Paterson will create by basically re-shuffling the state. People will have to up root families or commute great distances which just creates more costs on the everyday worker over a political power play.

I predict single digits for Paterson next poll. I think a new one that just came out (I will see if I can find it) had Paterson behind Cuomo, Guiliani, and Spitzer for re-election as governor of NY.

[Strix]

Strix, sorry for my ignorance. Could you correct the NY State Department of Labor? They seem to be ignorant of this too.

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/faq.shtm#14

Q: Can an employee be fired without due cause?

A: Yes. New York State is an "employment-at-will," state.

No, the NYS Department of Labor is not ignorant of this too. Just you.

I can add intellectual dishonesty to your ignorance as you purposely left the next sentence out of your quote.

Without a contract restricting termination (such as a collective bargaining agreement) an employer has the right to discharge an employee at any time for any reason.

We are talking about a NYS public employee union which has a collectively bargained agreement with the state.

So, you get +1 to ignorance and have discovered the new ability [intellectual dishonesty]!

EDIT: I bolded that part

[alfred russel]

Strix, sorry for my ignorance. Could you correct the NY State Department of Labor? They seem to be ignorant of this too.

http://www.labor.state.ny.us/workerprotection/laborstandards/faq.shtm#14

Q: Can an employee be fired without due cause?

A: Yes. New York State is an "employment-at-will," state.

No, the NYS Department of Labor is not ignorant of this too. Just you.

I can add intellectual dishonesty to your ignorance as you purposely left the next sentence out of your quote.

Without a contract restricting termination (such as a collective bargaining agreement) an employer has the right to discharge an employee at any time for any reason.

We are talking about a NYS public employee union which has a collectively bargained agreement with the state.

So, you get +1 to ignorance and have discovered the new ability [intellectual dishonesty]!

EDIT: I bolded that part

Well shit Strix. NY is at will, and NC is at will. In either state you can have employment contracts that restrict termination, including through collective bargaining agreements. NY is giving you a better deal, probably in a large part because you are represented by a union.

My only point was that NY is at will and NC is at will too. If you didn't say NY wasn't at will, I wouldn't have posted anything.

[Admiral Yi]

Which states are not at will?

[DGuller]

No, job satisfaction, reduced stress, and a good mission plan are the reasons for a low turnover rate. Law enforcement has a high burn out rate, and reasonable compensation goes a long ways towards reducing stress and creating job satisfaction.

If you need to wait five years to enjoy good mission plan, you're waiting for a job that overpays.  A job that pays a market rate doesn't have lines of potential employees waiting for years.

[dps]

I don't even think that would be legal in most countries.

It isn't legal to have them sign the letter, though.  Ross Perot used to have employees sign all kinds of letters obligating them to do things the employer couldn't obligate them to do (like serve for X years after taking training Y) because he knew they wouldn't discover he couldn't enforce the obligation.

Lots of companies pull shit like that, particularly with entry-level employees, because they know that the people in those positions won't know any better (and those that do are planning on just using the job as a stepping stone, and will want to move on asap without creating any waves).

[Berkut]

I don't even think that would be legal in most countries.

It isn't legal to have them sign the letter, though.  Ross Perot used to have employees sign all kinds of letters obligating them to do things the employer couldn't obligate them to do (like serve for X years after taking training Y) because he knew they wouldn't discover he couldn't enforce the obligation.

Lots of companies pull shit like that, particularly with entry-level employees, because they know that the people in those positions won't know any better (and those that do are planning on just using the job as a stepping stone, and will want to move on asap without creating any waves).

That is clearly an indication that the free market is not working, and only a union can possibly restore free market principles. Why, if Strix doesn't make enough cash with a guarantee of never being fired, clearly the free market is Teh Brokened.

Strix is big on unions, you know. Comes from being such an ardent Republican and all.

[dps]

I don't even think that would be legal in most countries.

It isn't legal to have them sign the letter, though.  Ross Perot used to have employees sign all kinds of letters obligating them to do things the employer couldn't obligate them to do (like serve for X years after taking training Y) because he knew they wouldn't discover he couldn't enforce the obligation.

Lots of companies pull shit like that, particularly with entry-level employees, because they know that the people in those positions won't know any better (and those that do are planning on just using the job as a stepping stone, and will want to move on asap without creating any waves).

That is clearly an indication that the free market is not working, and only a union can possibly restore free market principles. Why, if Strix doesn't make enough cash with a guarantee of never being fired, clearly the free market is Teh Brokened.

Strix is big on unions, you know. Comes from being such an ardent Republican and all.

Actually, the fact that companies will pull shit like this is about the only argument in favor of unions that I can think of.  The problem is, that the kind of people who get this pulled on them because they don't know any better are going to also get crap pulled on them with a union in place, because they're so clueless that they also won't know that they can report this stuff to their union rep.

[Razgovory]

That is clearly an indication that the free market is not working, and only a union can possibly restore free market principles. Why, if Strix doesn't make enough cash with a guarantee of never being fired, clearly the free market is Teh Brokened.

Strix is big on unions, you know. Comes from being such an ardent Republican and all.

Heh.  I remember Strix saying several times that he wasn't a Republican.  Kinda like you do.

[Caliga]

Lots of companies pull shit like that, particularly with entry-level employees, because they know that the people in those positions won't know any better (and those that do are planning on just using the job as a stepping stone, and will want to move on asap without creating any waves).

When I worked internally for RHI they had me sign a non-compete agreement, which is legally unenforceable in Kentucky.  I haven't since had any reason to "violate" it, but I'd have no problem doing so if the need arose.