Unions: good for workers or bad for business?

[Strix]

I think the evidence about who doesn't understand the NY state system is pretty obvious.  I argued for Patterson to proceed with state job downsizing, and you told me he couldn't do that.

And where exactly did I say this? I stated he cannot fire people "at will" because of the union contracts but I never stated he couldn't eliminate jobs. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that's what he plans on doing and how.

It was with me because when i argued that patterspon should cut jobs if the unions won't agree to cut salaries, you said he couldn't do that.

Once again, I stated that Paterson couldn't fire people "at will" which is true. He can only eliminate jobs.

]Given that I never argued that NY state was an at-will state for people in unions (in fact, stated explicitly that this was untrue in NY, NC, and Virginia), I guess i am moving on to this point because I won the earlier point and have now pinned you down onto the issue of whether or not Patterson can downsize the NY state employee ranks to compensate for the unions failing to agree with compensation concessions.

Considering almost every post in reply to one of mine insists that I am totally wrong about NYS public employee unions not being subject to being fired "at will" because you allege I have no idea what I am discussing provides evidence enough to the contrary. So, I guess what you were arguing is that what I was stating was correct but, however, that is inconsequential because I am Strix and therefore must be wrong? Very confusing but here is a quote to show perhaps that you were arguing that NYS is "at will".

I think Patterson is saying that, unless the unions agree to concessions, patterson will, as allowed by contract, terminate employees until the costs of the contract match more closely to the state's resources.

Paterson can't terminate employees "at will" but he can eliminate positions which may or may not ultimately result in the loss of displaced employees. Once again, you fail to understand this important distinction.

And, I am not sure how you won the earlier point considering that conceding I was right that NYS is not an "at will" state for public employee union members means I won that point. 

And, by the way, NC doesn't have any state employee unions that have the power to collectively bargain, so the fact that you lumped NY, NC, and VA together just shows how little you understand what is being discussed.

I say he can.  Do you disagree?

I never argued that the governor couldn't eliminate jobs. That is an argument you are trying to create because you failed so badly on the "at will" discussion that you need to divert attention away from it. I have always argued that the NYS governor cannot fire people "at will" which he cannot because of the union contract. You have apparently conceded that I was correct about this, and now wish to move onto a new topic that no one is arguing.

This is what I have argued for, so it seems that the issue is your reading comprehension, not my understanding of the law.

We are not arguing the pros and cons of eliminating state jobs in this thread. Once again, I refer you to the title of the thread. If you would like to create a thread discussing this topic than feel free to do so.

Sounds like Patterson is doing what I recommended.  Let's hope he cuts deeply enough to restore some sanity to the system.

Once again, if you would like to argue this than feel free to create a new topic. We can than discuss how potentially trimming the state tax base by 8,700 people, closing prisons, and reducing health care is good or bad for the state. And, of course, how the governor won't be trimming the jobs but rather accepting the recommendations of the department heads, so it's unlikely that they will remove the waste and inefficient jobs.

[Berkut]

And, of course, how the governor won't be trimming the jobs but rather accepting the recommendations of the department heads, so it's unlikely that they will remove the waste and inefficient jobs.

Hey, thanks for pointing out yet another reason why the state employees unions suck. because apparently they specifically protect the most wasteful and inefficient jobs!

The fact that you defend this tooth and nail is really rather sad. Not surprising - very few people are capable of objective reasoning, especially when they are nestled up at the government tit themselves.

I do find your hypocrisy rather amusing. When it comes to things you are not personally vested in, you are ideologically rabid and incapable of critical thought beyond "liberals bad! Lefties evil!" and when it comes to your own personal situation, you suddenly become the champion of the very worst examples of left-wing socialist dogma.

[Strix]

It is too bad that these cuts have to come as a result of the econmic crisis, rather than simply because NYS has a ridiculously over-paid, bloated, and inefficient public employee services.

It is kind of sad that in order to be able to afford grossly over-paying the Strixs of the world, other people have to work for a pittance in sub-contracted jobs.

Mrs. berkut has decided she wants to go back to work - not because we really need the money, but because she misses the work she used to do (social work). Of course, getting one of those cushy jobs with the state where you sit around all day picking your ass and shooting the shit while getting paid is nearly impossible, plus she said she doesn't think she could stand working in such an apathetic atmosphere.

So she is getting a part time job working for Easter Seals doing in home care for kids with disabilities. Her bachelors degree in social work combined with over a decade of experience helping people with developmental disabilities will get her slightly above minimum wage. Which doesn't matter much to her, but you wonder how many people simply cannot afford to do that kind of work, all so the state employees can burn through the states resources doing nearly nothing.

It amazes me that the state has actually managed to create an almost completely perverse system where the more competent you are, the less you will be rewarded, while the lazy and incompetent are untouchable.

Berkut, as previously stated, feel free this weekend (or any day this week) to go down to Avenue D, Jefferson Avenue, or Genesse Street around 9pm - 12pm and start knocking on doors. You have no idea what my job requires and what I do. I do know that you lack the skills, ability, education, and to be honest the nads to do it.

Enough about me, what exactly is your useless job in life?

[grumbler]

The lazy and incompetent have a much bigger lobby and voting base than the competent.

  I laugh out loud, but inside i am 

[Strix]

Hey, thanks for pointing out yet another reason why the state employees unions suck. because apparently they specifically protect the most wasteful and inefficient jobs!

The fact that you defend this tooth and nail is really rather sad. Not surprising - very few people are capable of objective reasoning, especially when they are nestled up at the government tit themselves.

I do find your hypocrisy rather amusing. When it comes to things you are not personally vested in, you are ideologically rabid and incapable of critical thought beyond "liberals bad! Lefties evil!" and when it comes to your own personal situation, you suddenly become the champion of the very worst examples of left-wing socialist dogma.

Hey, once again, thank you for pointing out your total ignorance when it comes to NYS employment. Upper management i.e. those in change of the cuts aren't union workers. 

So, I somehow doubt that people who work directly "at the will" of the governor will side with the union on cuts knowing that they can be terminated without cause.

[Strix]

On a more serious note, I would like to thank Berkut and grumbler for making it like old times. I missed when they were reduced to personal attacks/insults (Berkut) and trying to change the argument so that it fits their point (grumbler) when a thread wasn't going their way.

Missed you guys! 

[Berkut]

Berkut, as previously stated, feel free this weekend (or any day this week) to go down to Avenue D, Jefferson Avenue, or Genesse Street around 9pm - 12pm and start knocking on doors.

Why in the world would I want to do that?

Would that somehow prove how incredibly bad ass I am, so then I could go on the internets and brag about it in a desperate attempt to get someone to take me seriously?

Wait a minute - can't I do that anyway? I don't actually have to BE a bad ass to play one on Languish, do I?

You have no idea what my job requires and what I do.

Sure I do, you go on about how incredibly dangerous it is and what a kick ass, bad ass dude you are all the time, fighting to protect us from teh black and brown people all the time. You even stick your little tally in your sig, because you are just that Serious and Totally Awesome.

You go down to the Rochester Ghetto and knock on doors from 9pm to 12pm. That is what you do, right? Of course, you are not an ACTUAL police officer or anything like that. Oh no.

I do know that you lack the skills, ability, education, and to be honest the nads to do it.

Hmmm, skills...I think I could learn how to knock on doors. Ability - yeah, I am guessing that would not be hard to pick up either. Education? Uhh, what is that - 4 year degree from north Carolina State School of Kick-Assedness?

Gnads? Oh gosh no - you have proven here on Languish how incredibly tough and bad ass you are - I am sure I could never measure up to your incredible Chuck Norris-like awesomeness. I would have to work on the racism, bigotry, and such as well.

Enough about me, what exactly is your useless job in life?

What is more important is that my "useless job" pays me based on what the market says I am worth, rather than on what I can blackmail politicians into paying me, and if I don't produce, I get fired.

But what is relevant to this discussion is your amusing attempts to justify your rabid newly found socialism. Why not just have the honesty to acknowledge you are sucking at the government tit and life is fine?

[Berkut]

On a more serious note, I would like to thank Berkut and grumbler for making it like old times. I missed when they were reduced to personal attacks/insults (Berkut) and trying to change the argument so that it fits their point (grumbler) when a thread wasn't going their way.

Missed you guys! 

LOL, you are the one asking what I do for a living and crowing about how bad ass you are because you are a Parole Officer, Chuck.

[Strix]

Berkut, as previously stated, feel free this weekend (or any day this week) to go down to Avenue D, Jefferson Avenue, or Genesse Street around 9pm - 12pm and start knocking on doors.

Why in the world would I want to do that?

Would that somehow prove how incredibly bad ass I am, so then I could go on the internets and brag about it in a desperate attempt to get someone to take me seriously?

Wait a minute - can't I do that anyway? I don't actually have to BE a bad ass to play one on Languish, do I?

You have no idea what my job requires and what I do.

Sure I do, you go on about how incredibly dangerous it is and what a kick ass, bad ass dude you are all the time, fighting to protect us from teh black and brown people all the time. You even stick your little tally in your sig, because you are just that Serious and Totally Awesome.

You go down to the Rochester Ghetto and knock on doors from 9pm to 12pm. That is what you do, right? Of course, you are not an ACTUAL police officer or anything like that. Oh no.

I do know that you lack the skills, ability, education, and to be honest the nads to do it.

Hmmm, skills...I think I could learn how to knock on doors. Ability - yeah, I am guessing that would not be hard to pick up either. Education? Uhh, what is that - 4 year degree from north Carolina State School of Kick-Assedness?

Gnads? Oh gosh no - you have proven here on Languish how incredibly tough and bad ass you are - I am sure I could never measure up to your incredible Chuck Norris-like awesomeness. I would have to work on the racism, bigotry, and such as well.

Enough about me, what exactly is your useless job in life?

What is more important is that my "useless job" pays me based on what the market says I am worth, rather than on what I can blackmail politicians into paying me, and if I don't produce, I get fired.

But what is relevant to this discussion is your amusing attempts to justify your rabid newly found socialism. Why not just have the honesty to acknowledge you are sucking at the government tit and life is fine?

That was good humor. Like I said, you have no idea what my job entails. It's funny to watch you spout ignorance again and again. And, yes, I stick my tally in my sig because it is something I am proud to have done. I make more felony arrests in a year than any police officer and more than an FBI agent will in his lifetime.

Those that can...do, and those that can't...criticize.

You have no idea what are my political beliefs. It's funny to see you try to poke fun at what you can't/don't understand. It just demonstrates over and over how ignorant you are as a person and a poster.

[Strix]

LOL, you are the one asking what I do for a living and crowing about how bad ass you are because you are a Parole Officer, Chuck.

I am proud of the work I do. You apparently aren't as much. That's ok. Someone has to do that kind of work as well.

[grumbler]

And where exactly did I say this? I stated he cannot fire people "at will" because of the union contracts but I never stated he couldn't eliminate jobs. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that's what he plans on doing and how.

I said "I encourage the governor to begin the downsizing process in accordance with the demands of the union (and you).  It will be a very salutary lesson for everyone involved, and won't much affect the other people in the state because NY state workers are generally inefficient and obviously overpaid anyway.  More work spread to less people will force the remainder to actually earn more of their pay.'

You said: "It's pretty much you that doesn't have a clue. I think everyone here doesn't understand the protections given public employees for NYS by their unions because they have not enjoyed similar benefits themselves at any point in their lives."

Since we now both agree that Patterson can indeed do as I suggest, it is pretty clear that it is, indeed, I that 'has a clue."

Once again, I stated that Paterson couldn't fire people "at will" which is true. He can only eliminate jobs.

You clarified your statement to match my earlier statement.  You got a clue.

Considering almost every post in reply to one of mine insists that I am totally wrong about NYS public employee unions not being subject to being fired "at will" because you allege I have no idea what I am discussing provides evidence enough to the contrary. So, I guess what you were arguing is that what I was stating was correct but, however, that is inconsequential because I am Strix and therefore must be wrong? Very confusing but here is a quote to show perhaps that you were arguing that NYS is "at will".

I think Patterson is saying that, unless the unions agree to concessions, patterson will, as allowed by contract, terminate employees until the costs of the contract match more closely to the state's resources.

Paterson can't terminate employees "at will" but he can eliminate positions which may or may not ultimately result in the loss of displaced employees. Once again, you fail to understand this important distinction.

You are here engaging in distinctions without differences.  You claimed that NY state positions have waiting lists.  Now you aregue that eliminating positions will not eliminate employees.  You cannot have it both ways.

In any case, since the objective here is to save money, and eliminating empty jobs will not reult in savings, I think we can safely assume that the empty positions will be eliminated (with no impact on savings0 even before the filled positions.

And Patterson can do this despite the contract.

And, I am not sure how you won the earlier point considering that conceding I was right that NYS is not an "at will" state for public employee union members means I won that point. 

You still don't have a clue as to what 'at will' means, do you?    "At will" has nothing whatever to do with union contracts.

And, by the way, NC doesn't have any state employee unions that have the power to collectively bargain, so the fact that you lumped NY, NC, and VA together just shows how little you understand what is being discussed.

The fact that you cannot understand what these states have in common tells me that you simply don't (and won't bother to) get it at all.

I never argued that the governor couldn't eliminate jobs. That is an argument you are trying to create because you failed so badly on the "at will" discussion that you need to divert attention away from it. I have always argued that the NYS governor cannot fire people "at will" which he cannot because of the union contract. You have apparently conceded that I was correct about this, and now wish to move onto a new topic that no one is arguing.

So you agree that my contention, to which you responded that I didn't get it, was, in fact, correct?

I rest my case.  You do not have to comprehend what "at will" means for your concession that I am correct to have meaning.

[Berkut]

You should be proud of what you do, and I am sure we are all really impressed by it, and cannot imagine that anyone other than you could possibly do such difficult work.

That is why we don't constantly tell anonymous people on web-boards about what we do all the time - because we are so ashamed of ourselves. Unlike you.

[Berkut]

Hey Strix, how many of the felons you have arrested this year are on parole for violent offenses?

[Caliga]

Question: what exactly does a parole officer do?  I really have no idea. 

[Berkut]

Question: what exactly does a parole officer do?  I really have no idea. 

He knocks on doors from 9pm to 12pm, apparently.