The Fed Shutdown Poll and Megathread

[grumbler]

If there was any relationship between the budget decision process and the setting of the debt ceiling it would have meaning.  As it is they set the budget, it blows past the debt ceiling, they raise the debt ceiling.  Instead if they considered the debt ceiling when making the budget...

There really should be no relationship.  The debt ceiling is a bureaucratic formality, unrelated to policy.

[HisMajestyBOB]

How much leverage is the debt ceiling, though?  Isn't not raising the debt ceiling pretty much the self-destruct button for the US economics?  Do you really get much leverage from threats so grave that they're not credible?

If you convince others that you're willing to see the US economically self-destruct as long as you promote your ideological views, then it can be credible.

[KRonn]

I'm hardly overly sarcastic. I get the impression that you feel the Dems gaining power were the answers, that you hang onto the notion of one party being good, the other bad. I look at both parties as bringing us to the problems we have now, and I'm not going to cheer lead either one. And both parties are responsible for making things right, but neither has shown itself to get too far beyond the talking points. Especially when they give lip service and talking points, which Obama seems to be the King of. He needs to go some to prove himself. He's been too aloof, unengaged. Had nothing on the budget, now talks reform of entitlements. Let's see what he actually comes up with.

This is a far different argument than "I'm sure he'll clear everything up, and come out with some clear, concise and concrete ideas that we can all embrace."  It suffers from the disadvantage of being mature, sensible, and meaningful, but your first one had the advantage of being moronic.

Leave the sarcasm for those who can do it well.

Fair enough. I've given Obama leeway on Libya, as I know it's a tough decision. I'll give him leeway on the budget but not if it's the same old stuff that hasn't served us well for far too long now. We need answers and leadership, which is what I've been saying. Congress is trying but each side bludgeons the other; it gets ridiculous. If Obama comes out with something akin to reforms of the most difficult Federal programs I'll probably be happy as that will give a starting point for debate. I honestly don't know if he has it in him to take the tough road, but I think we need it on the budget issues. He'll get lambasted by those who disagree, but if he explains his stance for reform I think he'll get strong support, as most Americans view the budget issues as one of the most pressing problems.

[DGuller]

How much leverage is the debt ceiling, though?  Isn't not raising the debt ceiling pretty much the self-destruct button for the US economics?  Do you really get much leverage from threats so grave that they're not credible?

If you convince others that you're willing to see the US economically self-destruct as long as you promote your ideological views, then it can be credible.

Oh, shit, we're fucked. 

[MadImmortalMan]

How much leverage is the debt ceiling, though?  Isn't not raising the debt ceiling pretty much the self-destruct button for the US economics?  Do you really get much leverage from threats so grave that they're not credible?

If you convince others that you're willing to see the US economically self-destruct as long as you promote your ideological views, then it can be credible.

Oh, shit, we're fucked. 

Not really. We can easily pay the debt service. Other things would go without, but that won't.

[Admiral Yi]

I think what he's saying is that Obama's backtracking on the concept of a vote from over 5 years ago, and because of that, he's a lying dirty negro.  Obama, not Yi.

I'm saying Obama experienced a teachable moment.

[DGuller]

I think what he's saying is that Obama's backtracking on the concept of a vote from over 5 years ago, and because of that, he's a lying dirty negro.  Obama, not Yi.

I'm saying Obama experienced a teachable moment.

[derspiess]

How is it bullshit? How do you think the country got electricity and telephone service? The Government made companies provide it. Broadband is just as valuable a tool today if not more then the telephone was 70 years ago.

Funny thing is that a lot of people without broadband don't want it: http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1518486~d1c991314bb8cc21e1f2f9380bfd0996/RuralUrban.jpg

IMO the ones who want it but can't get it are not worth the expense.  If there is enough demand, cost-effective solutions will appear for them, particularly as wireless broadband becomes more ubiquitous & less costly. 

[grumbler]

I'm saying Obama experienced a teachable moment.

Since everyone experiences those all of the time, that seems a rather trite conclusion.

[Valmy]

Funny thing is that a lot of people without broadband don't want it: http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1518486~d1c991314bb8cc21e1f2f9380bfd0996/RuralUrban.jpg

IMO the ones who want it but can't get it are not worth the expense.  If there is enough demand, cost-effective solutions will appear for them, particularly as wireless broadband becomes more ubiquitous & less costly. 

What if they live in a rural area?  Sort of hard to work up demand when not many people live in the area.

[Razgovory]

Funny thing is that a lot of people without broadband don't want it: http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1518486~d1c991314bb8cc21e1f2f9380bfd0996/RuralUrban.jpg

IMO the ones who want it but can't get it are not worth the expense.  If there is enough demand, cost-effective solutions will appear for them, particularly as wireless broadband becomes more ubiquitous & less costly. 

What if they live in a rural area?  Sort of hard to work up demand when not many people live in the area.

Also may not be cost effective, especially in the case of electricity where a great deal of infrastructure is needed.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm saying Obama experienced a teachable moment.

Since everyone experiences those all of the time, that seems a rather trite conclusion.

Politicians are never, ever allowed to change their positions.  Particularly black politicians Teabaggers hate.

[Admiral Yi]

Politicians are allowed to change their minds, even black politicians Teabaggers hate.  I generally see it as a sign of maturity that a person can say they were in the wrong and that their perspective has changed.

What is less commendable, even for black politicians Teabaggers hate, is to have that moment of ephiphany right at the moment when it is in your political self-interest to do so.  Obama has had 5 years to reflect on that particular vote, but it wasn't until he was on the other end of the game of nuclear chicken that he discovered it's a bad choice.

[CountDeMoney]

I dunno...if I were a politician, particularly a black one Teabaggers hate, I'd have had a change of heart regarding the debt ceiling vote I cast in 2006 after seeing the 2008 meltdown and following carnage which I would be dealing with today, even as a black politician Teabaggers hate.

[Admiral Yi]

I dunno...if I were a politician, particularly a black one Teabaggers hate, I'd have had a change of heart regarding the debt ceiling vote I cast in 2006 after seeing the 2008 meltdown and following carnage which I would be dealing with today, even as a black politician Teabaggers hate.

Which gets us to where we were previously.  If you were a politician, particularly a black on Teabaggers hate, why would the 2008 meltdown have caused your thinking about voting against lifting the debt ceiling to change?