[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Josephus]

Not a wise thing to say in a campaign for sure...although it's a noble statement.

As an immigrant myself, and one who paid some $50 for my citizenship, upon becoming Canadian I was given all the rights and priviledges of citizenship. If I engage in terrorism, I expect to be treated the same way as a natural-born, --or what's the term now-- old-stock, Canadian. Put me in jail for ever, if necessary; but deportation is wrong.

if you have double citizenship, I think it's faire.  I would do the same to natural born canadian, but that'd be against some international law or something.

Yeah.  I'd love to dump anyone, sole or dual citizen, at the border after they've served their sentence, but I understand why it can only be done to dual citizens.

I'm a dual citizen. That doesn't matter. I am Canadian and as such am subject to the same rights as any other Canadian citizen. Else, you're creating two classes of citizenship. It doesn't say that on my citizenship papers.

[Grey Fox]

and act of terrorism, maybe, should strip you of those rights.

[viper37]

I'm a dual citizen. That doesn't matter. I am Canadian and as such am subject to the same rights as any other Canadian citizen. Else, you're creating two classes of citizenship. It doesn't say that on my citizenship papers.

If you commit an act of terrorism against Canada or its allies, you don't deserve your Canadian citizenship, you are no more than a foreigner to us.

It's not two class of citizenship, it's simply good policy.  As I said, I would do it to non dual citizenship holder, but it's not permitted by UN regulations to make someone stateless.

The easy way is to not commit terrotist act while you are a Canadian, American, British and maybe other countries too citizen if you have a dual passport.  The other way would be to renounce your other citizenship.

Think of it another way: if you lie about your past when you become a canadian citizen, it can be stripped from you.  Why can't we do it when the guy becomes an active terrorist?  He likely lied on his intent to become a canadian citizen uphold our values, respect our laws and honor your obligations as citizen of the country.

I really don't think we should cuddle liars, especially if they wish for our destruction.

[Malthus]

Tell me.  What is the difference between a Canadian citizen and a Canadian citizen?

it's a bit unfair to caracterize it this way.

Let's assume we have two criminals, same crime, same personality.  One is a canadian citizen, the other is not.  The Canadian citizen will be jailed, but the non Canadian citizen can be deported to his country of origin.  Technically, both are equal in front of the law.  Yet, one may be expelled from the country to some 3rd world shithole, while the other will not risk any of that.

Now, if someone has dual citizenship and uses one of his citizenship to commit crimes against Canada or our allies, I think it is perfectly justified to say he implicitely renounced his canadian citizenship by committing crimes of this nature.  All that is left is the technicallity of the papers to sign.

And it's probably one of the best way to prevent radicalization in our own countries by these people.

I can sorta see both sides of the issue on this - I can well understand why people would be pissed off by those who take citizenship for cynical reasons, in effect "gaming the system" - particularly where they do so to *attack* the Canadians that they purport to join.

OTOH, it seems unjust to have different consequences depending on the technicality of whether they have dual citizenship or not - it is discouraging to with the same paperwork but who are *not* terrorists (the vast majority!), in effect telling them 'your citizenship isn't really first-class'.

Reminds me of a saying from The Master and Maragrita, where Satan comes to Moscow and scoffs at a restaurant that serves "second-class" salmon - saying something along the lines of 'if it isn't first-class, it is worthless'. 

[Josephus]

Why stop at terrorists? Why not murderers? Rapists? Drunk Drivers?

Hell, naturalized citizens who are caught torrenting music should be sent back home.

My point is, and nothing will change it, is that as a Canadian citizen i am no different in my rights than GF or any other old stockers. That's what my citizenship certificate tells me, and far as I know, it's a pretty legal document.

Lawyers would have a field day with this anyway.

[Valmy]

Why stop at terrorists? Why not murderers? Rapists? Drunk Drivers?

Hell, naturalized citizens who are caught torrenting music should be sent back home.

Suicide should be punishable by death! Jaywalkers should be shot on sight! All slopes insufficiently slippery shall be liquidated!

[Barrister]

Why stop at terrorists? Why not murderers? Rapists? Drunk Drivers?

Hell, naturalized citizens who are caught torrenting music should be sent back home.

My point is, and nothing will change it, is that as a Canadian citizen i am no different in my rights than GF or any other old stockers. That's what my citizenship certificate tells me, and far as I know, it's a pretty legal document.

Lawyers would have a field day with this anyway.

There already were methods for cancelling your Canadian citizenship - if you had lied in obtaining it.

And really... slipper slope arguments?  To my mind there's a pretty clear distinction between terrorists and drunk drivers.

[viper37]

OTOH, it seems unjust to have different consequences depending on the technicality of whether they have dual citizenship or not - it is discouraging to with the same paperwork but who are *not* terrorists (the vast majority!), in effect telling them 'your citizenship isn't really first-class'.

It is first-class.  If they are stuck somewhere after a war or tragedy, we will do our best to bring them back home (wich does not amount to much, apparently), be it they have dual or single citizenship.

If they get arrested by a foreign country, we will also act the same way toward them as anyone else, except that matters may be more complicated if they hold citizenship of the country arresting them.

However, if they lied when they signed up for our citizenship, like some nazi war criminals, then they can be stripped of their Canadian nationality obtained under false pretense.

I have compassion for the guy holding dual Syrian & Canadian citizenshop whose wife risks deportation because of a technical error in filing his forms.  I really want him to stay and I hope someone at the government will Gibbs-slap some bureaucrat to wake up.  Unless the people are criminals, deporting them to Syria, or any other warzone is totally unfair&unjust.

But a terrorist who hates Canada and want it destroyed?  No problem seeing bitching and ranting about 2nd class citizenship all the way back to the hellhole he crawled out of.

Same goes for immigrants lying on the reason for the persecution.  I couldn't care less if we deport someone who will get persecuted in his home country because he's a religious fundamentalist.  But I care about someone being persecuted for wishing democracy.  And the government already act this way.  If Josephus came from Portugal to avoid conscription in colonial wars, he might not have been deported back to his country in case he committed crimes here.  Had come because he planted a bomb at a soldiers barrack, he might have been deported back to his home country.

[viper37]

Why stop at terrorists? Why not murderers? Rapists? Drunk Drivers?

Because there's a difference in the crimes, as reflected by the intention behind the crimes when you commit them?

Hell, naturalized citizens who are caught torrenting music should be sent back home.

That'd be unfair.  We shouldn't expell people just because they are not technogically savvy

My point is, and nothing will change it, is that as a Canadian citizen i am no different in my rights than GF or any other old stockers. That's what my citizenship certificate tells me, and far as I know, it's a pretty legal document.

And you are not.  Except if your actions demonstrate an intent to renounce your citizenship or if you lied during your application to become a citizen.

To reuse my example, if you planted bombs at soldiers barracks to oppose conscription in Portugal and you never declared it, you might be sent back to your country of origin, even if you are a naturalized citizen.

[crazy canuck]

In my view once a person becomes a Canadian citizen then they are a citizen for all purposes for all time.  If a Canadian citizen commits a terrible crime then the Canadian criminal justice system is engaged to deal with that issue.  If Canada has an issue with people having more than one citizenship then it should make a requirement for people who wish to obtain a Canadian citizenship to drop their status with the other country.  But there are good policy reasons for not doing so.

[Valmy]

In my view once a person becomes a Canadian citizen then they are a citizen for all purposes for all time.

Indeed you cannot even renounce it voluntarily by word or action. Which I find rather bizarre. What exactly does citizenship mean? Does it not carry rights and obligations?

[crazy canuck]

In my view once a person becomes a Canadian citizen then they are a citizen for all purposes for all time.

Does it not carry rights and obligations?

Sure.  It carries the right to be treated like all other Canadian citizens.

[viper37]

Indeed you cannot even renounce it voluntarily by word or action.

I'm pretty sure you can renounce your Canadian citizenship.  Conrad Black did renounce his in 2001, so I can't see why anyone else could not.  It involves a little more than saying "I do not want to be Canadian anymore", but it can be done by actions on your part.

[viper37]

In my view once a person becomes a Canadian citizen then they are a citizen for all purposes for all time.

It has never been so in the past, I don't see why it should be now.  Even if you are natural born, if you own double citizenship, you can be forced to renounce it.

[Josephus]

Why stop at terrorists? Why not murderers? Rapists? Drunk Drivers?

Hell, naturalized citizens who are caught torrenting music should be sent back home.

My point is, and nothing will change it, is that as a Canadian citizen i am no different in my rights than GF or any other old stockers. That's what my citizenship certificate tells me, and far as I know, it's a pretty legal document.

Lawyers would have a field day with this anyway.

There already were methods for cancelling your Canadian citizenship - if you had lied in obtaining it.

Lying in obtaining my citizenship and committing a crime after I legally obtained my citizenship are two different things.