[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Grey Fox]

No, I see no link. Viper posting that image in french would serve nothing on this forum. One can reasonably expect that the the hypothical real world version in Quebec would be in french.

Plus, you know, that's a photoshop job.

[Malthus]

No, I see no link. Viper posting that image in french would serve nothing on this forum. One can reasonably expect that the the hypothical real world version in Quebec would be in french.

Plus, you know, that's a photoshop job.

My point is about the irony of Viper posting it, not that the poster is real. 

But really - you see no link whatsovever between religion as an aspect of self-identity, and language as an aspect of self-identity?

To my mind, that's the problem in a nutshell.

To you guys, it is a terrible symbolic humiliation if something isn't published in French ... but it means nothing to force a Sikh to stop wearing his funny headgear. You simply cannot or will not understand that, to the Sikh, his funny hat is just as important as your language is to you. Or alternatively, you do not care.

[Valmy]

But really - you see no link whatsovever between religion as an aspect of self-identity, and language as an aspect of self-identity?

Of course they do.  They do not want people with foreign identities diluting the national homeland of Quebec, which they already feel is in danger of being culturally annihilated.  In Quebec they want people with a Quebec cultural attitude about religion.

[Grey Fox]

That's not what I meant by no link. However that is right. I see the link, I just denied it.

It's like smoking, you should stop it.

Also, I am not viper or grallon.
I do not hold the fact that I speak french to be the Alpha & Omega of my cultural identity. I am damn annoyed by those that do so, especially francophones. We are more than just french speaking, ffs.

[crazy canuck]

for Trudeau to even speak clearly about this demonstrate it's a serious issue to him

[viper37]

But really - you see no link whatsovever between religion as an aspect of self-identity, and language as an aspect of self-identity?

No, not really.

If I'm arrested by a police officer in Toronto, I can't claim my right to french speaking to refuse arrest.
I have no more rights in Toronto than you have in Quebec city.

but it means nothing to force a Sikh to stop wearing his funny headgear.

You make it sound so nazi-ish.
I do wonder sometimes if Grallon is right about you or you just simply can't understand.

There are rules that applies for everyone.  Sometimes, we make exceptions, like for handicapped people, they don't have to stand in court (duh!). 

But religion is not an incurable disease.  If by law everyone is required to wear a helmet for protection, why should a Sikh be exempted from it?  If his religion is more important than his security or the security of everyone around him, he is a religious fanatic and I don't want him working for me.  Fortunately, they have been ruled against in this particular case. 

As for the kirpan, it's a bloody knife.  I certainly couldn't bring my knife in school.  Why should they?  Why make an exception?  Why not allow muslims to disrupt classes by holding their prayer whenever it's time?  Why make kosher food mandatory when you're in a public school because there's a dozen jewish students in a thousand souls school?  Why teach that humans were created by Eloims because otherwise we offend Raeliens?

I get it that religion is important to some.  It was important to my grandfather.  His religion mandated he attend Church every Sunday morning instead of working.  And he did it, most of the time.  Yet, he knew how to make compromises on his beliefs.  I didn't become a priest and he did worked on Sundays from time to time instead of going to Church.  But that's private sphere, not public.  A distinction some religious people seem unable to make. 

Take Lev Tahor.  Quebec was accused of racism, and some of you guys joined on the bandwagon.  Who was right in the end?  Wich was better you think, letting them leave for Guatemala with the kids or infringing on their religious beliefs?  People like you thought it was better to leave them to their religious beliefs, and I disagree.  If you come to live in Canada, certain things are expected of you.  Although it varies from province to province, I'm not aware of any public schools that teach creationism in biology classes, but I suppose it could exists outside of Quebec, you never know.

As for the comparison with language, French Canadians were granted various rights throughout history, mainly for fear of American expansionism toward to Canada, to keep the citizens inline.  We live in a democracy, and we are in a minority.  If Canadians want the end of official bilingism for Federal government, they can happily vote for it instead of bitching in the Globe&Mail and the National Post.  I will remind you, again, that English speakers have way more services available in their language than any french speaker outside of Quebec, even in bilingual provinces like New Brunswick and Ontario (to a certain extent).  The only thing they can't do is have an english only sign (and even then, many have found a way around it) and speak english only to their customers.  In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to enforce this by law as it's a basic sign of respect (are McDonald's customers greated in english while in Germany or Japan?), but it seems that with you guys, the simplest thing become a matter of human rights. 

Unfortunately, our Empire didn't prevail in the war, so we're left a minority here, and we have to survive somehow.  I've already stated the reasons why French is important in Quebec, it's more than just a matter of national identity, it's also a competitive edge to distinguish ourselves from our neighbours.  Without French, we'd simply be another Vermont, Quebec city would be another Burlington and there's be a significantly reduced interest to do business here.

And I will also add that unlike a majority of anglos, I strongly disagree that language is simply a tool like a hammer or a skillsaw.  I also strongly disagree that we should tend toward mono-lingualism around the world.

[viper37]

As for "do not write laws with it" - well, the irony of a person from Quebec posting with approval a billboard that would be illegal in Quebec for exactly this reason ought to be apparent, no? 

so you would not have a problem if Ontarian laws were written in a Chinese dialect?  You would simply learn that dialect to adjust to the life and that'd be it?

[viper37]

Of course they do.  They do not want people with foreign identities diluting the national homeland of Quebec, which they already feel is in danger of being culturally annihilated.  In Quebec they want people with a Quebec cultural attitude about religion.

there is a certainly a limit to the number of immigrants a society can integrate.  You drop one pinch of salt in a glass of water, you taste the difference.  Drop one pinch of salt in a lake, do you still taste the difference?

[Malthus]

But really - you see no link whatsovever between religion as an aspect of self-identity, and language as an aspect of self-identity?

No, not really.

If I'm arrested by a police officer in Toronto, I can't claim my right to french speaking to refuse arrest.
I have no more rights in Toronto than you have in Quebec city.

but it means nothing to force a Sikh to stop wearing his funny headgear.

You make it sound so nazi-ish.
I do wonder sometimes if Grallon is right about you or you just simply can't understand.

There are rules that applies for everyone.  Sometimes, we make exceptions, like for handicapped people, they don't have to stand in court (duh!). 

But religion is not an incurable disease.  If by law everyone is required to wear a helmet for protection, why should a Sikh be exempted from it?  If his religion is more important than his security or the security of everyone around him, he is a religious fanatic and I don't want him working for me.  Fortunately, they have been ruled against in this particular case. 

As for the kirpan, it's a bloody knife.  I certainly couldn't bring my knife in school.  Why should they?  Why make an exception?  Why not allow muslims to disrupt classes by holding their prayer whenever it's time?  Why make kosher food mandatory when you're in a public school because there's a dozen jewish students in a thousand souls school?  Why teach that humans were created by Eloims because otherwise we offend Raeliens?

I get it that religion is important to some.  It was important to my grandfather.  His religion mandated he attend Church every Sunday morning instead of working.  And he did it, most of the time.  Yet, he knew how to make compromises on his beliefs.  I didn't become a priest and he did worked on Sundays from time to time instead of going to Church.  But that's private sphere, not public.  A distinction some religious people seem unable to make. 

Take Lev Tahor.  Quebec was accused of racism, and some of you guys joined on the bandwagon.  Who was right in the end?  Wich was better you think, letting them leave for Guatemala with the kids or infringing on their religious beliefs?  People like you thought it was better to leave them to their religious beliefs, and I disagree.  If you come to live in Canada, certain things are expected of you.  Although it varies from province to province, I'm not aware of any public schools that teach creationism in biology classes, but I suppose it could exists outside of Quebec, you never know.

As for the comparison with language, French Canadians were granted various rights throughout history, mainly for fear of American expansionism toward to Canada, to keep the citizens inline.  We live in a democracy, and we are in a minority.  If Canadians want the end of official bilingism for Federal government, they can happily vote for it instead of bitching in the Globe&Mail and the National Post.  I will remind you, again, that English speakers have way more services available in their language than any french speaker outside of Quebec, even in bilingual provinces like New Brunswick and Ontario (to a certain extent).  The only thing they can't do is have an english only sign (and even then, many have found a way around it) and speak english only to their customers.  In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to enforce this by law as it's a basic sign of respect (are McDonald's customers greated in english while in Germany or Japan?), but it seems that with you guys, the simplest thing become a matter of human rights. 

Unfortunately, our Empire didn't prevail in the war, so we're left a minority here, and we have to survive somehow.  I've already stated the reasons why French is important in Quebec, it's more than just a matter of national identity, it's also a competitive edge to distinguish ourselves from our neighbours.  Without French, we'd simply be another Vermont, Quebec city would be another Burlington and there's be a significantly reduced interest to do business here.

And I will also add that unlike a majority of anglos, I strongly disagree that language is simply a tool like a hammer or a skillsaw.  I also strongly disagree that we should tend toward mono-lingualism around the world.

What you don't see, is that you could put "language" into your screed with little change in meaning.

"But [language] is not an incurable disease.  If by law everyone is required to [speak English], why should a [person from Quebec] be exempted from it?  If his [language] is more important than his security or the security of everyone around him, he is a [...] fanatic and I don't want him working for me."

Yet if an Anglophone came out with such a statement, you roundly condemn him. And frankly, I would agree with your condemnation. 

[Malthus]

As for "do not write laws with it" - well, the irony of a person from Quebec posting with approval a billboard that would be illegal in Quebec for exactly this reason ought to be apparent, no? 

so you would not have a problem if Ontarian laws were written in a Chinese dialect?  You would simply learn that dialect to adjust to the life and that'd be it?

I have no problem wth billboards being written in the Chinese language, no. They are common here. I have simply adjusted to it.

http://footage.framepool.com/en/shot/528145709-billboard-chinatown-chinese-writing-toronto

[Valmy]

Yet if an Anglophone came out with such a statement, you roundly condemn him. And frankly, I would agree with your condemnation. 

Well the situation is different for the reasons I already said.

[Malthus]

Yet if an Anglophone came out with such a statement, you roundly condemn him. And frankly, I would agree with your condemnation. 

Well the situation is different for the reasons I already said.

Well, I'm of the opinion that there aren't two kinds of citizen - only one. 

[Valmy]

Well, I'm of the opinion that there aren't two kinds of citizen - only one. 

First of all the people in question are not yet citizens.  Secondly, I understand your take on the issue.  I mean I couldn't care less about people with funny hats coming to Texas, we are among the most famous funny hat wearers in the world.  But emotionally I do feel a little weird to see that happen in England, the ethnic homeland.  Something in me would prefer England always be English, whatever that means, in a way that I don't emotionally care about Texas being Texan because really there is no 'Texan' nationality.  Not that there is any serious danger of England ceasing to be English I was just throwing that out there.

So I can understand the stress about wanting to preserve a national homeland and making that a priority even if I don't agree with it.  But in order to get the Quebec priorities you have to get your head around that.

[garbon]

Well, I'm of the opinion that there aren't two kinds of citizen - only one. 

First of all the people in question are not yet citizens.  Secondly, I understand your take on the issue.  I mean I couldn't care less about people with funny hats coming to Texas, we are among the most famous funny hat wearers in the world.  But emotionally I do feel a little weird to see that happen in England, the ethnic homeland.  Something in me would prefer England always be English, whatever that means, in a way that I don't emotionally care about Texas being Texan because really there is no 'Texan' nationality.  Not that there is any serious danger of England ceasing to be English I was just throwing that out there.

So I can understand the stress about wanting to preserve a national homeland and making that a priority even if I don't agree with it.  But in order to get the Quebec priorities you have to get your head around that.

Policies /curtailing freedom of others should not be base on woolly notions that bubble forth from one's gut.

[Valmy]

Policies /curtailing freedom of others should not be base on woolly notions that bubble forth from one's gut.

True but most policies are.  That is what Democracy is all about.