[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Malthus]

Do you or do you not think French Canadian culture is inferior to English Canadian culture is what viper & grallon want to ask you but never do.

No-one I know actually thinks French Canadian culture is inferior to English Canadian culture.

The problem here is that 'criticism by those outside of Quebec of the intolerant actions of the current Quebec government' are being perceived, by some at least in Quebec, as 'English Canada thinks Quebec culture is inferior'. 

This is, without a doubt, what those behind the Charter are hoping for - indeed, a big part of what it was designed to do. How do they shrug of criticism of guys like Parizeau, I wonder?   

[Malthus]

So Viper - are you finally awakening to the fact these people cannot be reasoned with? 

Depends if Canadians are willing to admit that laïcité is not the same as sending immigrants to concentration camps and gazing them.

Vipes, there is a big range of intolerance.

Saying that the currently proposed Charter of Values is intolerant is not the same as saying it is "the same as sending immigrants to concentration camps".

Yes, the Charter is bad because it is an act of intolerance. In the scheme of things, pretty minor intolerance, compared with genocide. 

[viper37]

Umm, yeah.

Nobody has ever said Quebec is a racist province.

CC brought the charter in a thread discussing nazis.  After saying that comparing Québécois to nazis is a valid criticism of Quebec's policies.  If an editorial in Quebec was published about how the British Empire and the Federal government acted like nazis in destroying french culture of the country, lots of bad comments would surface from Canada.  I don't think anyone would caracterize this as "simple criticism of canadian policies".

And in the other thread, there were multiple accusations of bigotry flying.  that's kinda the same as racism to me.

I'll go so far to say that Quebecois nationalism has a racist element to it, but even then it isn't so much racism as a kind of pure laine nationalism.

Before Marois and her thirst for power, such people were quickly taken down by the PQ leadership.  Any such mention, even out of context, would be slammed down.
Now... Well, Marois&Duceppe did everything they could to encourage extremists of any kind.  Be it talks of burning tents for people who wanted to replay the 1759 battle, be it the student protests, be it the union thugs or now the xenophobic elements of our society, it's like she's blowing on the fire to make it bigger than it is, in hope it will profit her.  And when she's got their vote, or the controversy goes really too far, to the point where she starts losing support in her own camp, than she backs down.

Otherwise, Quebec's nationalism has never been rooted exclusively in "pure-laine".  It is based on language, for sure.  Most English Quebecers don't consider themselves as Québécois, it's hard to include someone who doesn't wish it.  But the national identity, with english as its core is not based on one's ancestry.  It's based on the language you use now.

If what you get out of our posts is that Quebec is equal to Nazi Germany, then you're right, there isn't any purpose in talking.

Not from you, but certainly from CC and Canada's editorials:
"This proposition reeks of the onset of fascism and Nazism that was born in Europe in the 1920s and quickly led to chaos and the holocaust in the years to follow."
- Toronto Star, September 14th 2013.

"The PQ charter is so yesterday

How successful have past attempts to engineer culture-through-clothing regulation been?
[...]
Perhaps that is one question Quebec should be asking before it attempts to impose its Charter of Values on its citizens.By far the most notorious of recent cultural engineering efforts by a government occurred during Nazi rule in Germany and occupied territories in the 1930s and early 1940s. The Nazis revived old medieval laws requiring Jews to wear a yellow star and sometimes a badge with the word "Jude" or "Juif" on it. The purpose was to enable brutal discrimination against a portion of their population.
- Winnipeg Free press, September 18th.

"A doctor's response to the Charter of Values
Any student of history will tell you that the erosion of human rights for some is always predicated on the notion that the "other" is somehow less of a person, less of a human. The last 100 years is all too replete with such examples, unfortunately not restricted by geography, ideology or ethnic distinctions. Take a moment to personally think of a few. Don't forget to think of the victims who under different circumstances of time and location might have been you or someone you know and care about."
- CJAD 800, September 20th.
CJAD is one of Montreal's english speaking radios.
Other comparison to nazism follows.

[Neil]

Of course French-Canadian culture is inferior to English-Canadian culture.  English-speaking cultures are superior to all others.  That's why all civilized people speak English.

[viper37]

Yes, the Charter is bad because it is an act of intolerance. In the scheme of things, pretty minor intolerance, compared with genocide. 

Finally a sensible comment.  You may not be as bad as Grallon thinks

wich part of the charter is bad?
I agree that targetting other's symbols while keeping our own is stupid.  I disagree that removing visible religious symbols (cross, prayers, turban, knives, jewelry) from public life is bad.  I disagree that all state's employees should remove their religious symbols, many of them don't even have a dress code because they are not in contact with the public.

I'm of the generation that had to pray in school every morning or be suspended (and I was).  Finally, in the late 90s this sillyness was gone.  But now, other people are seeking to bring it back everywhere.  and I disagree. 

A teacher wearing a veil in class sends the message that it's a normal thing for a woman to cover her head and/or face and only real women do it.  It creates social pressure on muslim women to adopt the veil, and I think they need our help on this.  Sure enough, when a moderate group asks for help in limiting the influence of religious fanatics, I'm inclined to listen.

[Malthus]

Not from you, but certainly from CC and Canada's editorials:
"This proposition reeks of the onset of fascism and Nazism that was born in Europe in the 1920s and quickly led to chaos and the holocaust in the years to follow."
- Toronto Star, September 14th 2013.

"The PQ charter is so yesterday

How successful have past attempts to engineer culture-through-clothing regulation been?
[...]
Perhaps that is one question Quebec should be asking before it attempts to impose its Charter of Values on its citizens.By far the most notorious of recent cultural engineering efforts by a government occurred during Nazi rule in Germany and occupied territories in the 1930s and early 1940s. The Nazis revived old medieval laws requiring Jews to wear a yellow star and sometimes a badge with the word "Jude" or "Juif" on it. The purpose was to enable brutal discrimination against a portion of their population.
- Winnipeg Free press, September 18th.

"A doctor's response to the Charter of Values
Any student of history will tell you that the erosion of human rights for some is always predicated on the notion that the "other" is somehow less of a person, less of a human. The last 100 years is all too replete with such examples, unfortunately not restricted by geography, ideology or ethnic distinctions. Take a moment to personally think of a few. Don't forget to think of the victims who under different circumstances of time and location might have been you or someone you know and care about."
- CJAD 800, September 20th.
CJAD is one of Montreal's english speaking radios.
Other comparison to nazism follows.

These guys seem to me to be making a "slippery slope" argument - that is, allowing this type of intolerance is bad, because in the past it led to the horrors of Nazi Germany.

It's a bad argument, as 'slippery slope' arguments often are, because not all acts of intolerance lead to a race to the bottom ending in genocide. The Charter of Values sucks because, while the intolerance displayed is pretty minor, it is still a bad thing unto itself. It would suck even if, as is obviously vastly more likely, Quebec never becomes like unto a Nazi state. 

However, making the argument isn't the same thing as claiming Quebec = Nazis, which you appear to believe.

Edit: examples of the "slippery slope" as an informal fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html

[crazy canuck]

Umm, yeah.

Nobody has ever said Quebec is a racist province.

CC brought the charter in a thread discussing nazis.  After saying that comparing Québécois to nazis is a valid criticism of Quebec's policies.

You have commited acts of selective reading in the past but this really takes the cake.  Meri made the comment that the British governments actions of blaming youth for their poverty was a "new" low.  I told her it had nothing on the Quebec Charter.

That exchange had nothing to do with Nazis. 

If you want to feel all hurt about stuff people dont actually think go ahead.  But dont try to blame me for your fantasies of persecution.

[viper37]

No-one I know actually thinks French Canadian culture is inferior to English Canadian culture.
The problem here is that 'criticism by those outside of Quebec of the intolerant actions of the current Quebec government' are being perceived, by some at least in Quebec, as 'English Canada thinks Quebec culture is inferior'. 

it ain't exactly a recent phenomenom.  I don't think people even think consciously about it the way Neil is trolling.  But it's certainly been a core policy of the British Dominion of Canada.

This is, without a doubt, what those behind the Charter are hoping for - indeed, a big part of what it was designed to do. How do they shrug of criticism of guys like Parizeau, I wonder?   

Senility (no joke).

[Malthus]

it ain't exactly a recent phenomenom.  I don't think people even think consciously about it the way Neil is trolling.  But it's certainly been a core policy of the British Dominion of Canada.

The problem with your perception is that it is totally wrong.

First, there is no unitary English-speaking Canadian culture. Toronto is not Newfoundland is not Calgary.

Second, an English Canadian person from, say, Ontario, would raise exactly zero eyebrows if he said something like 'The culture in Ontario is so bland. I much prefer the culture in Quebec - thye music scene, the arts scene, is way better there'.

Ask your average English Canadian about Lord Durham and he'd likely say to you: "who was that?" 

Senility (no joke).

Oddly, his arguments appeared cogent and sensible. 

[crazy canuck]

First, there is no unitary English-speaking Canadian culture. Toronto is not Newfoundland is not Calgary.

And to suggest that there is such a thing as English speaking culture in any of the major cities is a bit laughable given the cultural diversity of those cities.  I would pay to have Viper go to Richmond (just south of Vancouver City) and explain to a shop keeper there who likely speaks very little english and whos shop has no english signage at all that he is part of some mythical english culture oppressing the French culture in Quebec.

Viper, the thing you have to realize is that but for the ranting of Grallon and you on this forum, I wouldnt know much about what is happening in your province.  You guys barely register as newsworthy in this area of the country.  Sorry if that offends your sense of importance but we really dont think about you all that much.

I will give you an example which is less personal to you.  This morning I heard that Nova Scotia had a provincial election.  Not only did I not know there was an election in that province I had no idea the NDP were the governing party.  Why dont I know those things?  Because it does not make any difference to me on this side of the country.

[viper37]

First, there is no unitary English-speaking Canadian culture. Toronto is not Newfoundland is not Calgary.

I know that.

Second, an English Canadian person from, say, Ontario, would raise exactly zero eyebrows if he said something like 'The culture in Ontario is so bland. I much prefer the culture in Quebec - thye music scene, the arts scene, is way better there'.

They'd raise an eyebrow if they said Montreal was a better place to live than Toronto

Ask your average English Canadian about Lord Durham and he'd likely say to you: "who was that?" 

Maybe.  Maybe not.  I've seen folks using the nickname online, to them it felt natural.  English Canadian history remembers him for his recommendations that Canada be self-governed (responsible government), wich eventually led to the creation of Canada to counter the American expansion threat.

Ontario certainly sees itself as the center of power, and will work hard to maintain it.  When Robert Campeau tried to join the circles of high finance in Toronto, he faced massive opposition from English Canada's establishment.  His leverage buyouts were mostly declined in english Canada, in favour of less competive offers and he had to finance his other acquisitions with American banks since no Canadian bank would lend him any money.

When TSE acquired Montreal's stock exchange, they immediatly fired the Québécois CEO (Luc Bertrand) from his job.  A few years later, they attempted to merge with the London Stock Exchange.  But Luc Bertrand came back at the head of an investor group to buy them back, having himself secured a large portion of their stock to make sure the deal with LSE would go south. 

Péladeau companies were first developped in Quebec and the US, before he could enter the Ontarian&Canadian market.

The Conservative party has never elected a French Canadian at its head.  Mulroney was English-Quebecer, Charest was named head of the party after their crushing defeat of '93, when he was one of the only 2 MPs left.

That tells me there are still a lot of... call it whatever you want against French canadians raising above their station.
Even Desmarais, from Sudburry could not pierce the Toronto financial markets at first, he had to build his business in Quebec, until he was Canada's 4th richest man. 

And whenever we talk about official bilinguism and what it really implies... Well, it does not seem to mean the same for French Canadians than English Canadians.

Oddly, his arguments appeared cogent and sensible. 

You asked how the PQ pro-charter wing reacted to his opposition, I gave it to you as it is.  I've seen "senility" (Victor-Lévy Beaulieu famous author), I've seen "disconnected from the small people" (columnist in La Press), I've seen other things to relating to his age.

Funny enough, when last year he was supporting Option Nationale, claiming the PQ did not talk enough about sovereignty, that there was no referendum in sight... The same people did not have a problem with his "senility" or "disconnection to the real world".  You gotta love politics.

[viper37]

Viper, the thing you have to realize is that but for the ranting of Grallon and you on this forum, I wouldnt know much about what is happening in your province.  You guys barely register as newsworthy in this area of the country.  Sorry if that offends your sense of importance but we really dont think about you all that much.

Unless I specifically watch the "French Canada" news bulletin on RDI, I don't hear much of BC either.  I suspect New Yorkers don't hear a lot about everyday California politics too. 

It has to do with being a large country more than anything else.  It doesn't french people don't have to fight everyday for their rights to be respected by their governments.

[Agelastus]

When Robert Campeau tried to join the circles of high finance in Toronto, he faced massive opposition from English Canada's establishment.  His leverage buyouts were mostly declined in english Canada, in favour of less competive offers and he had to finance his other acquisitions with American banks since no Canadian bank would lend him any money.

I can't comment on the rest of the post since it's not my sphere, but I was interested enough to look this guy up.

Given the ultimate results of his strategy of leveraged buyouts, I'm not sure this guy is a good example to use of Anglo-Canadian prejudice; it could be equally argued that many of those Anglo-Canadians who refused his offers acted with great prudence and foresight given what happened with his largest acquisition in the USA.

[Barrister]

I'll go so far to say that Quebecois nationalism has a racist element to it, but even then it isn't so much racism as a kind of pure laine nationalism.

Before Marois and her thirst for power, such people were quickly taken down by the PQ leadership.  Any such mention, even out of context, would be slammed down.
Now... Well, Marois&Duceppe did everything they could to encourage extremists of any kind.  Be it talks of burning tents for people who wanted to replay the 1759 battle, be it the student protests, be it the union thugs or now the xenophobic elements of our society, it's like she's blowing on the fire to make it bigger than it is, in hope it will profit her.  And when she's got their vote, or the controversy goes really too far, to the point where she starts losing support in her own camp, than she backs down.

Otherwise, Quebec's nationalism has never been rooted exclusively in "pure-laine".  It is based on language, for sure.  Most English Quebecers don't consider themselves as Québécois, it's hard to include someone who doesn't wish it.  But the national identity, with english as its core is not based on one's ancestry.  It's based on the language you use now.

I rather explicitly said that Quebec nationalism wasn't "exclusively" based on pure laine.  I said Quebec nationalism has always had that element to it.  While it has mostly been about language, there has always been some tension between language-based nationalism, and pure laine ethnic nationalism.

[Barrister]

They'd raise an eyebrow if they said Montreal was a better place to live than Toronto

I've heard LOTS of English Canadians say that Montreal is a better place to live than Toronto. Hell, I've heard lots of people say Montreal is an awesome place to live, period.  If they have complaints it isn't about language, but rather economy / taxes.

Péladeau companies were first developped in Quebec and the US, before he could enter the Ontarian&Canadian market.

I don't know about a lot of your examples, and don't really want to do extensive research before replying, but this one... I know it to be false.

I know it to be false because working for Quebecor paid for my university education.

My dad worked for the Winnipeg Sun, which was owned by Quebecor (and had been since the 80s).  He got me a few different jobs there, too.  It was Quebecor that allowed me to go to school.

Ironically, it was Quebecor buying the Sun newspaper chain (which until 1999 was a separate chain, and did not own the Winnipeg Sun) that ruined the party.  While the Winnipeg Sun had always been owned by Quebecor, now that Quebecor owned the Sun chain they transferred the Winnipeg Sun into their new Sun Media subsidiary.  They fired my dad, and while for appearances kept my odd jobs for a while, soon after fired me as well.

And not once while working there did I hear one word of Anti-Quebec sentiment about being owned by a Quebec company.