[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[viper37]

And btw blaming greens/lefties for not switching to renewable fast enough is certainly a take. Inertia, big oil lobbying, collectivization of the consequences of global warming but privatizing profits are more logical culprits.

If all work hand in hand, it becomes difficult to overcome inertia.

The left and the greens have always been opposed to all but the perfect solution.

They've been opposed to nuclear, cancelling nuclear projects and shutting down nuclear plants (Gentilly-2, and Germany notably, but also in the US), they've been opposed to solar plants in the desert because it was damaging to the local fauna (which is false and borderline conspiracy theory).  Opposition to all natural gas was bit daf.  Right now, ok, we have other sources in most of Canada.  20 years ago, a heat pump wasn't a realistic option for most people as they weren't effective enough in the winter.  It's still not that effective for industrial and large commercial buildings, but only now is the government (Hydro-Quebec) going hard with natural gas as a heating source.

That's all stuff that should have been done 20-25 years ago.  But impossible to do because of the left's opposition to all such projects.  But it the various LNG terminals proposed in Quebec (and strangely, now, no one is protesting that we're moving a huge ferry port from Rivière-du-Loup to Cacouna where previously it was dangerous for the local fauna to have any kind of increase in maritime traffic.  Now, it's ok to expand the port AND have more ferries.  Go figure.)

Did a certain right, pro-oil, had anything to do in the opposition to some clean energy projects, like nuclear and solar?  Most likely, but I don't have any definite proofs.  I can only suspect big oil was sometimes playing both sides with the likes of Greenpeace when it suited them.  Activists, like conspiracy theorists, are always easy to manipulate to achieve your aims.  Look at the MAGA how the techbros and other billionaires went hard on Trump and the Q-Anon stuff.

[viper37]

Historical truth kinda matters to me.

Intellectual honesty matters.

And blaming people for things they didn't do makes it easier to dismiss what they say now on the same topic, since "they were wrong before". Even if they weren't.

Given how the right - especially the American right - like to blame their political opponents for things they did in the past, keeping some measure of intellectual accountability seems important.

Greenpeace opposition to nuclear power was an invention of my part?

And also this?

Remind me, in Quebec, who shut down our only nuclear power reactor (Gentilly-2), inflating the repair costs to justify themselves?

[Admiral Yi]

Intellectual honesty matters.

Agreed.  Blaming global warming primarily on the oil companies is not intellectually honest.  They merely extract carbon from the ground.  That doesn't cause global warming.  You, I and Zoupa are the ones who drive a car, take a plane or heat our homes and by doing so released carbon into the atmosphere.  Intellectual honesty is telling yourself the truth you'd rather not hear.

[Zoupa]

Intellectual honesty matters.

Agreed.  Blaming global warming primarily on the oil companies is not intellectually honest.  They merely extract carbon from the ground.  That doesn't cause global warming.  You, I and Zoupa are the ones who drive a car, take a plane or heat our homes and by doing so released carbon into the atmosphere.  Intellectual honesty is telling yourself the truth you'd rather not hear.

Big oil firms knew of dire effects of fossil fuels as early as 1950s, memos show

Exxon's Climate Denial History: A Timeline

Exxon Knew about Climate Change almost 40 years ago

Global Climate Coalition

Exxon's 25 Year "Drop Dead" Denial Campaign

[Jacob]

Intellectual honesty matters.

Agreed.  Blaming global warming primarily on the oil companies is not intellectually honest.  They merely extract carbon from the ground.  That doesn't cause global warming.  You, I and Zoupa are the ones who drive a car, take a plane or heat our homes and by doing so released carbon into the atmosphere.  Intellectual honesty is telling yourself the truth you'd rather not hear.

Agree on the importance of being honest with yourself. The rest of your post is a bit of a nonsequiteur.

IMO what matters the most is robust public policy and regulation. Relying on individual moral action is the same as ignoring the issue (whatever the issue may be).

Coincidentally, framing climate change as an individual responsibility was a deliberate PR policy by oil companies. It seems to have worked very well.

[Admiral Yi]

Big oil firms knew of dire effects of fossil fuels as early as 1950s, memos show

Exxon's Climate Denial History: A Timeline

Exxon Knew about Climate Change almost 40 years ago

Global Climate Coalition

Exxon's 25 Year "Drop Dead" Denial Campaign

Did you believe them?

[Zoupa]

Big oil firms knew of dire effects of fossil fuels as early as 1950s, memos show

Exxon's Climate Denial History: A Timeline

Exxon Knew about Climate Change almost 40 years ago

Global Climate Coalition

Exxon's 25 Year "Drop Dead" Denial Campaign

Did you believe them?

What's the relevance of your question to the discussion?

[Admiral Yi]

What's the relevance of your question to the discussion?

I'm asserting that you, I and Jake have made choices that have contributed to global warming.  If you were unaware in the past, or are unaware now, that burning carbon contributes to global warming because of misinformation disseminated by oil companies, in my mind that would tend to mitigate the blame I assign to you.

[Oexmelin]

Power isn't an on/off switch

[Jacob]

What's the relevance of your question to the discussion?

[Admiral Yi]

Sure, the first two panels are analogous.  You want oil companies to stop drilling but you don't want to stop consuming petroleum.

[mongers]

...snip.....

Sure, the first two panels are analogous.  You want oil companies to stop drilling but you don't want to stop consuming petroleum.

Whilst not entirely on the same page as you, I do think you have a valid argument.

After all we're all mature, having lived as adults now for 20-40 years, the heating of the planet has only really been apparent in the last 35-40 years and what have we been doing, .... waiting for inferior governments and the politicians to act.

To be clear it can be both, want/demanding/voting for politicians to act and taking steps ourselves. And maybe more including active climate engineering etc.

[Razgovory]

"Punish the plutocrats" is a better slogan than "Make sacrifices".

[Razgovory]

What's the relevance of your question to the discussion?

What a terrible cartoon.  The person with the phone benefits from the low wages of Chinese workers.  The car guy and the peasant do not benefit from their situation.

[Jacob]

Whilst not entirely on the same page as you, I do think you have a valid argument.

After all we're all mature, having lived as adults now for 20-40 years, the heating of the planet has only really been apparent in the last 35-40 years and what have we been doing, .... waiting for inferior governments and the politicians to act.

To be clear it can be both, want/demanding/voting for politicians to act and taking steps ourselves. And maybe more including active climate engineering etc.

Yes we all have individual responsibility, but actual effective change comes from public policy as enacted by our governments - setting out strategic objectives and supporting them with regulation, incentives, enforcement, and funding.

Sure, as residents of democracies we share the responsibility for how our elected governments have set public policy, but the whole "make an individual choice to take one less flight or remember to turn off the light switch to consume less energy" is a crock of shit and an abnegation of our actual political responsibilities to affect systemic change.

You or me choosing to ride our bikes individually means fuck all in the big scheme of things. What matters is shifting the habits of hundreds of thousands and millions of people, and that's not coming through appeals to virtue signalling.

It is also an indictment of our political and economic system that we have allowed capital to undermine the attempts at shifting public policy through their lobbying and PR efforts.

We absolutely have responsibility, yes, but that responsibility is not a matter of consumer or lifestyle choice but of making our governments create public policy that brings capital to heel. Responding to the climate change crisis requires collective and societal changes, and the best tool for achieving such change is through government action.