[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Neil]

What exactly is it that you want your Senate to do effectively?

[viper37]

What exactly is it that you want your Senate to do effectively?

what's your opinion of the american senate?

[Neil]

What exactly is it that you want your Senate to do effectively?

what's your opinion of the american senate?

Less worthless than the House of Representatives, but still pretty bad.

[crazy canuck]

There are a few issues floating around here.

1) What the heck is Harper doing with his reference case?

He is getting a determination as to whether giving the provinces more power in the selection process is constitutional.  I see nothing wrong with the reference as a matter of law but I disagree with the Government giving the provinces that power in the first place.  More on that below.

2) EEE good thing or bad.  Well lets break that down.

Equal?  The fact that the Maritime provinces have the number senators they currently enjoy is an accident of history.  Making that representation mean something more than it already does makes that mistake of history worse.  It simply makes no sense to allow a province like PEI with the population of one of BC's smaller cities to have the same representation as BC.

Elected?  If they are going to be Effective they would need to be elected so I will will address most of my concerns under that heading.  But in the current set up where the Senate has limited powers I think elections are a very bad idea.  Why would we ever want to give a body like the Senate the appearance of legitimate authority an election would give it?

Effective?  Someone said effective at what.  The question is a good one.  Why create another layer of government?  Can we learn nothing from American deadlock?  I see no point to creating even more expense for elections and the mechanism of governing.  We are overgoverned as it is. 

Lastly Drakken's point is well made.  The whole issue is a bit of a charade since there is no chance the Constitution will be amended to create a EEE senate - even IF it was a good idea.

[Neil]

It simply makes no sense to allow a province like PEI with the population of one of BC's smaller cities to have the same representation as BC.

Sure it does.  In the Senate, the provinces would be equal, counterbalancing BC's enormous influence in the Commons relative to PEI.

[crazy canuck]

It simply makes no sense to allow a province like PEI with the population of one of BC's smaller cities to have the same representation as BC.

Sure it does.  In the Senate, the provinces would be equal, counterbalancing BC's enormous influence in the Commons relative to PEI.

Like I said, that makes no sense at all.  Why would any sane person outside of the Martimes think that is a good idea?

[Jacob]

And then he begins to talk.  That is when all his problems start.  Both in terms of style and substance.

I agree that if the Liberals could ever get their house in order they could give the Conservatives a run.  But it seems that will be at least one more election cycle and another leadership convention away.

I guess the "legalize marijuana" shine has worn off already for you?

[Neil]

It simply makes no sense to allow a province like PEI with the population of one of BC's smaller cities to have the same representation as BC.

Sure it does.  In the Senate, the provinces would be equal, counterbalancing BC's enormous influence in the Commons relative to PEI.

Like I said, that makes no sense at all.  Why would any sane person outside of the Martimes think that is a good idea?

A westerner.  Quebecois.  People who understand regionalism.

[Jacob]

Equal (same number of senators from each province)
Elected; and
Effective

How would that shake out politically? I mean obviously Ontario would lose some influence, as would Quebec (?). I assume the Maritimes would get more clout, assuming they can stick together. Same for the West?

I don't know if there's a pressing need to reduce Ontario's political power at this point. What's the case for that?

[Drakken]

The US Congress system was created at first as a matter of confederation, where each State was to be treated as equals.

Canada isn't and never was a confederation, it's a federation of various regions of different size and population which varied through the years. Equal would be for Alberta, BC, Ontario, and Quebec, a sum-zero game.

Plus, for EEE to work we would have to ban party discipline in the Senate. If EEE was to be enacted the game must be different from how it works in the Commons.

[Jacob]

Like I said, that makes no sense at all.  Why would any sane person outside of the Martimes think that is a good idea?

Seems it's a move to reduce Quebec and Ontario's influence.

But yeah, I don't really see what the benefit of an EEE senate is. I mean, it's different and all, but I don't really see the need. Right now it serves a good purpose as a "reward for lifetime service" - be it for political hackery or more nationally worthwhile achievements. I'd rather have that out in the open, to be honest; and I'd rather have those people in the Senate than I'd have the government try to find patronage appointments for them elsewhere.

On this matter I'm a Conservative - it works more or less as it is, so leave it be.

[Drakken]

I'd be in favour of changing the rules for entering the Senate, however. These haven't been changed since the Confederation. Both 30 years of age and 3,000$ in property is far too low.

[crazy canuck]

Equal (same number of senators from each province)
Elected; and
Effective

How would that shake out politically? I mean obviously Ontario would lose some influence, as would Quebec (?). I assume the Maritimes would get more clout, assuming they can stick together. Same for the West?

I don't know if there's a pressing need to reduce Ontario's political power at this point. What's the case for that?

Times have changed.  The notion of a EEE senate had some attraction back in the days when Reform first proposed it because Ontario and Quebec were viewed as holding all the political cards.  Since then the West and indeed the nation has matured somewhat and power has become more diffuse.

EEE now make little sense for the West or any other region outside the Maritimes.

[crazy canuck]

I'd be in favour of changing the rules for entering the Senate, however. These haven't been changed since the Confederation. Both 30 years of age and 3,000$ in property is far too low.

If we were to change it I would remove the rule entirely. 

[crazy canuck]

And then he begins to talk.  That is when all his problems start.  Both in terms of style and substance.

I agree that if the Liberals could ever get their house in order they could give the Conservatives a run.  But it seems that will be at least one more election cycle and another leadership convention away.

I guess the "legalize marijuana" shine has worn off already for you?

Yep.  The guy is definitely not the person for the job.