[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Jacob]

I was going to write something here in response. But seeing how I'm suddenly labelled as irrational, I won't bother.

You're wrong though.

There are many rational reasons to vote for Trudeau. Most of them come down to having policy preferences that align more with the Liberals than the Conservatives.

On substance, the Liberals are superior to the Conservatives in most places IMO. Mandatory vaccination for federal employers, child care, climate change.

Right now, of course, the Conservative strategy is for O'Toole to tack hard to the centre while attacking Trudeau personally. But you only have to look at Kenney and Ford to see the personality of the Conservative party in power... and even there Trudeau, flaws and all, is better.

[crazy canuck]

Now do the NDP vs Liberals.

[Jacob]

Now do the NDP vs Liberals.

I generally prefer the NDP to the Liberals, but realistically it's going to be Trudeau or O'Toole. But the ideal outcome, IMO, is a Liberal minority dependent on a strong NDP caucus.

[Barrister]

I was going to write something here in response. But seeing how I'm suddenly labelled as irrational, I won't bother.

You're wrong though.

There are many rational reasons to vote for Trudeau. Most of them come down to having policy preferences that align more with the Liberals than the Conservatives.

On substance, the Liberals are superior to the Conservatives in most places IMO. Mandatory vaccination for federal employers, child care, climate change.

Right now, of course, the Conservative strategy is for O'Toole to tack hard to the centre while attacking Trudeau personally. But you only have to look at Kenney and Ford to see the personality of the Conservative party in power... and even there Trudeau, flaws and all, is better.

This to me reads like a certain brand of 2016 Trump apologia.  'Yes, Trudeau has his character flaws, but you know for policy reasons I'll hold my nose and vote for him'.


Reminds me of an interesting poll I saw earlier (ah found it).  Conservative voters overwhelmingly actually want the Conservatives to win, while barely half of Liberal voters want Trudeau to get a majority, and about 20% would actually prefer another party to win.



https://angusreid.org/federal-election-expectation-reality/

(also interesting is that amongst BQ voters, whose party can't form government, there's a noticeable preference for the Conservatives.  I don't know how to explain that though)

[Jacob]

This to me reads like a certain brand of 2016 Trump apologia.  'Yes, Trudeau has his character flaws, but you know for policy reasons I'll hold my nose and vote for him'.

Reminds me of an interesting poll I saw earlier (ah found it).  Conservative voters overwhelmingly actually want the Conservatives to win, while barely half of Liberal voters want Trudeau to get a majority, and about 20% would actually prefer another party to win.

Yeah, first past the post has the hard core right wing that's about 30% of the country wanting their guy to win, but the 60+% who are not have to be strategic about their voting. Not surprising, and to the advantage of the Conservatives.

But yeah, it's grounds for optimism for Conservatives that's for sure.

[Oexmelin]

Utterly unenthusiastic about the election. Was planning on throwing my vote away for the NDP so that they at least get some money, but the recent surge of Conservatives may lead me to back the strongest contender here (which happens to be BQ).

Preference for Conservatives among BQ voters I guess can be, in some limited measure, ascribed to the lingering hatred of Trudeau senior/the Liberals among nationalists.

[Barrister]

This to me reads like a certain brand of 2016 Trump apologia.  'Yes, Trudeau has his character flaws, but you know for policy reasons I'll hold my nose and vote for him'.

I've compared Trudeau to Trump before, and I still think the comparison holds.

Both came to prominence based on huge name recognition but no practical experience in government.
Neither personally had strong personal policy preferences, generally deferring to the party brass.
Neither strike you as being overly bright.
Both showed no hesitation to interfere with criminal investigations when it suited their purpose.
Both were open to enriching themselves or their family as a result of their position.


Now obviously they're not a perfect match.  One's left, the other's right.  I can't possibly compare Trudeau to Trump's anti-democratic actions.  On some of these I can make the comparison, but Trump is orders of magnitude worse.  But the comparison holds.

[Jacob]

[viper37]

There are many rational reasons to vote for Trudeau.

Of course there are:
- You have a profound dislike for French speaking people
- You hate Quebec and its people
- You believe in a one size fits all for all government policies, from coast-to-coast, regardless of the economic&social situation in each province.
- You believe the deficit and debt do not matter at all and money should be abolished anyway
- You believe religious integrism to be a personal choice, as long as the people do not consider themselves "white"
- You believe it's Canada duty to open the door for every migrants in the world, so long as it's not the Federal government responsibility to bring them here in an emergency situation and ideally, shift the costs and logisitics to the provinces.
- You do not believe honesty to be an important matter in politics&governance.  You'd much prefer a lying cheating bastard from the left than a honest person from the right.
- You think Canada has one culture, one language but you do not wish to express it openly.
- You believe a political candidate from the Liberal Party should be exempt of scrutiny for his sexual harassment of women.
- You generally believe that it's better to talk about doing something than actually doing it, like climate change, for example.


These are all logical reasons, imho.  I may not agree with them, but they are logical, after all.  And in all these aspects, the Liberal platform is vastly superior to the Conservatives' platform.

[viper37]

and you react just like Trumpist, proving his point.

[Barrister]

There are many rational reasons to vote for Trudeau.

Of course there are:
- You have a profound dislike for French speaking people
- You hate Quebec and its people

I have plenty of vitriol for Trudeau.  But this?

[Grey Fox]

It's more of a Liberal thing than Trudeau in viper's book.

[Grey Fox]

There are many rational reasons to vote for Trudeau.

Of course there are:
- You have a profound dislike for French speaking people
- You hate Quebec and its people
- You believe in a one size fits all for all government policies, from coast-to-coast, regardless of the economic&social situation in each province.
- You believe the deficit and debt do not matter at all and money should be abolished anyway
- You believe religious integrism to be a personal choice, as long as the people do not consider themselves "white"
- You believe it's Canada duty to open the door for every migrants in the world, so long as it's not the Federal government responsibility to bring them here in an emergency situation and ideally, shift the costs and logisitics to the provinces.
- You do not believe honesty to be an important matter in politics&governance.  You'd much prefer a lying cheating bastard from the left than a honest person from the right.
- You think Canada has one culture, one language but you do not wish to express it openly.
- You believe a political candidate from the Liberal Party should be exempt of scrutiny for his sexual harassment of women.
- You generally believe that it's better to talk about doing something than actually doing it, like climate change, for example.


These are all logical reasons, imho.  I may not agree with them, but they are logical, after all.  And in all these aspects, the Liberal platform is vastly superior to the Conservatives' platform.

It's funny how cynic you are of left leaning politicians while I expect right leaning politicians to be righteously squeaky clean.

[crazy canuck]

Both came to prominence based on huge name recognition but no practical experience in government.

That is correct, but that is as far as this very very thin comparison goes.

Neither personally had strong personal policy preferences, generally deferring to the party brass.

That is bullshit for both of them.  Trump was in now way deferential to the "party brass" he undermined them.  Trudeau has always been as strong supporter of liberal democratic values.

Neither strike you as being overly bright.

True of Trump, but Trudeau is more bright than say your average conservative politician.

Both showed no hesitation to interfere with criminal investigations when it suited their purpose.
Both were open to enriching themselves or their family as a result of their position.

Wow, comparing the corruption of Trump to the little tempests in a tea pot the Conservatives are fixated with - I will say it again, you have truly imbibed the cool-aid.

Now obviously they're not a perfect match.  One's left, the other's right.  I can't possibly compare Trudeau to Trump's anti-democratic actions.  On some of these I can make the comparison, but Trump is orders of magnitude worse.  But the comparison holds.

Maybe in the mind of a true blue life long conservative supporter.  But for the rest of us, nope.

[Barrister]

Wow, comparing the corruption of Trump to the little tempests in a tea pot the Conservatives are fixated with - I will say it again, you have truly imbibed the cool-aid.

The SNC Lavelin affair, where Trudeau attempted to get his own AG to drop corruption charges against a well-connected firm is a 'tempest in a teapot'?

What about giving WE Charity a sole-sourced $912 million contract after WE gave hundreds of thousands of dollars in speaking fees and other compensation to Trudeau's wife and mother?  Also a 'tempest in a teapot'?

Who exactly has imbibed the kool-aid here?