[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Grey Fox]

My position is not to abolish all police. Just the Federal one that was created to impose White Supremacy in Canada.

#Rielhaditcoming

Well, yeah. He rebelled against the racist government and lost.

A new name and uniforms for the exclusively federal successor of the RCMP is a given.

The fact that it is still in BC and the Atlantic provinces the main source of Police force is to me quite abhorrent.

The RoC likes calling Quebec racist but, like us, it doesn't look itself in the mirror often.

[crazy canuck]

Surely you need a federal police force for crimes that take place in multiple provinces surely? What sense would it make to just not have a police force with jurisdiction that goes over the entire country?

Or is the idea to have that just not call it the RCMP?

No, we don't have the same jurisdictional problems as you folks do.  All our criminal laws are enacted by the Federal Government.  Local police forces can and do cooperate with other police forces (including those in the US) if there is cross jurisdictional crime.

[crazy canuck]

Back in, I think, the 2000s Justice Oppal did a report on policing in BC and he concluded that by far the best option would be to create regional police forces in BC, both from an operational and fiscal point of view.

There are some municipal police forces in communities in BC which have already opted out of the RCMP contract.  Our biggest city - Surrey is in the process of doing that now.  I think it will not be too long before the provincial government implements the Oppal Report recommendations.

That's big if Surrey is getting out of RCMP contract policing.  My understanding is that was the RCMP's biggest office by far.

Curious they'd find it cheaper than a BC police force.  Maybe just because the RCMP is so much more extensive in BC than other provinces.

Yeah,. the loss of Surrey is going to be a big financial hit for the RCMP, and will likely make the cost of policing for them in the other communities of BC untenable when the contract comes back up for renewal.  It is not yet a done deal, the Mayor who brought this in may not survive the next election.  But if he does, it will likely occur.

I think Surrey is doing this wrong.  The Oppal report is I think the better path - ie the creation of a regional police force.  But if Surrey does go down that path, it will likely eventually evolve into something Oppal called for all those years ago.  It also helps that Oppal was appointed by the Province as the person overseeing all of this transition under the BC Police Act.  I have a lot of time for Oppal, so I am hopeful.

[Barrister]

Surely you need a federal police force for crimes that take place in multiple provinces surely? What sense would it make to just not have a police force with jurisdiction that goes over the entire country?

Or is the idea to have that just not call it the RCMP?

The RCMP can and does have that role.

But they also do local policing in a variety of smaller jurisdictions too.

It's as if you had the FBI and took all the FBI-stuff that they do, but jurisdictions can also contract with the FBI to take over their local police services.

[Barrister]

Back in, I think, the 2000s Justice Oppal did a report on policing in BC and he concluded that by far the best option would be to create regional police forces in BC, both from an operational and fiscal point of view.

There are some municipal police forces in communities in BC which have already opted out of the RCMP contract.  Our biggest city - Surrey is in the process of doing that now.  I think it will not be too long before the provincial government implements the Oppal Report recommendations.

That's big if Surrey is getting out of RCMP contract policing.  My understanding is that was the RCMP's biggest office by far.

Curious they'd find it cheaper than a BC police force.  Maybe just because the RCMP is so much more extensive in BC than other provinces.

Yeah,. the loss of Surrey is going to be a big financial hit for the RCMP, and will likely make the cost of policing for them in the other communities of BC untenable when the contract comes back up for renewal.  It is not yet a done deal, the Mayor who brought this in may not survive the next election.  But if he does, it will likely occur.

I think Surrey is doing this wrong.  The Oppal report is I think the better path - ie the creation of a regional police force.  But if Surrey does go down that path, it will likely eventually evolve into something Oppal called for all those years ago.  It also helps that Oppal was appointed by the Province as the person overseeing all of this transition under the BC Police Act.  I have a lot of time for Oppal, so I am hopeful.

Even if you didn't have a BC police service, there would surely be some benefits to having a regional lower mainland police service.  But I know how hard something like that can be to pull off.

[crazy canuck]

I agree entirely.  The ideal situation would be to have a regional police force for Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley and the rest of the province policed by the RCMP.  But I doubt the RCMP would ever go for that deal.  They make all their money on Surrey.

[Jacob]

I haven't followed it very closely at all, CC - do you know what the main driver behind the move for a Surrey PD is? Is it personality conflicts? A desire to move away from the negative view certain communities have of the RCMP specifically? A pursuit of theoretical operational efficiencies? A desire to accumulate more power and direct control within the mayor's office? A response to specific transgressions?

[Barrister]

I agree entirely.  The ideal situation would be to have a regional police force for Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley and the rest of the province policed by the RCMP.  But I doubt the RCMP would ever go for that deal.  They make all their money on Surrey.

I have never heard of contract policing being a money-maker for the RCMP.

[crazy canuck]

I haven't followed it very closely at all, CC - do you know what the main driver behind the move for a Surrey PD is? Is it personality conflicts? A desire to move away from the negative view certain communities have of the RCMP specifically? A pursuit of theoretical operational efficiencies? A desire to accumulate more power and direct control within the mayor's office? A response to specific transgressions?

It is a long long story.  For a few decades now BC municipalities have been fed up with the RCMP's lack of accountability to local concerns.  While they do consult, local politicians cannot direct them.  All operational decisions are made through the Federal RCMP chain of command going back to Ottawa.  The last time the contract came up for renewal there was a lot of talk of not renewing and moving toward a BC policing system with regional wide police in the Greater Vancouver/Fraser Valley.  But there was too much foot dragging and time just ran out.  The current Surrey Major was very frustrated with that failure and ran on getting rid of the RCMP and bringing in a force which would be more accountable to local authorities (like the VPD).  He won the election and that is where we are now.

[crazy canuck]

I agree entirely.  The ideal situation would be to have a regional police force for Greater Vancouver and the Fraser Valley and the rest of the province policed by the RCMP.  But I doubt the RCMP would ever go for that deal.  They make all their money on Surrey.

I have never heard of contract policing being a money-maker for the RCMP.

It is for the RCMP in BC.  That is one of major complaints.  We are subsidizing other operations. 

[viper37]

Riel is an extremely fascinating figure and quite important in Canadian history.  He simultaneously deserves to be recognized as a Father of Confederation for his actions in 1870, and a rebel and traitor in 1885.

Rebel, certainly.  The Federal government was trying to expel the Metis and Indians from their lands, as the good successor of the British Empire they were.  So, they rebelled.  And they lost, unfortunately. 

And it opened the door for further White and English speaking and Protestant emigration in the Prairies.  At the expense of those who lived there before.  At the expense of the buffalos too, sadly.  And later on, at the expense of the Indian tribes who sought refuge from US agression in Canada. 

A win-win for all concerned.  Except the Metis.  And the Indians.  And the French speakers.  And the Catholics.   But overall, a proud moment of Canadian history...
So yeah, a rebel.  A traitor?  Certainly not to Canada.  When the country you live in turns against you, it's your duty to rebel.  In other places, they call them, patriots, but in the British Empire, I guess that makes them traitors.

[Malthus]

My position is not to abolish all police. Just the Federal one that was created to impose White Supremacy in Canada.

#Rielhaditcoming

Well, yeah. He rebelled against the racist government and lost.

A new name and uniforms for the exclusively federal successor of the RCMP is a given.

The fact that it is still in BC and the Atlantic provinces the main source of Police force is to me quite abhorrent.

The RoC likes calling Quebec racist but, like us, it doesn't look itself in the mirror often.

A new name and uniform is what they already had. The RCMP was established in 1920, long after the time of Riel. They were the successor to the previous force, known as the North West Mounted Police.


Point being that changing a name and uniform will make no difference, as people will simply believe the new force is the same as the old force regardless of name or uniform. You evidently already believe this of the RCMP.

The real reason people are annoyed with the RCMP is that it is federal. Thus means it is not under the control of local politicians, meaning local concerns do not carry as much weight with them (a reasonable objection) and also, they are not under the thumb of local corruption (a good thing).

Of course they have a troubled history of racism and racial strife. They are hardly unique in this respect. Every police organization in the nation - yes, including those in Quebec (and Ontario for that matter) can say the same.

The notion that Canadians hate to look into this fact is laughable. Our current government, it must be said, sometimes appears to do little else. A major criticism of our Prime Minister is that he sometimes sounds like he's been elected as our apologizer-in-chief. Of course it is easy to apologize, and hard to do anything constructive about the many and severe problems between native and non-native - unfortunately, we are now in a place where, with the best of intentions, we have created a system that practically guarantees continuing strife, with little end in sight.

[crazy canuck]

Y'all rightly mocked the Conservatives for voting down a resolution on climate change at their convention.

But take a look at some of the policies the NDP convention are considering:


-Nationalize major auto companies and shift toward building environmentally sustainable cars.

-Reduce the work week to 32 hours without loss of pay or benefits and outlaw mandatory overtime.

-Establish free public transit within one year of forming government.

-Another calls for the return of Crown lands and the restoration of Indigenous jurisdiction to Indigenous nations, commonly known as "Land Back."

-Others call for the complete or partial defunding, disarming and disbanding of police forces in Canada.

-One resolution in particular calls on the government to freeze military spending, while another proposes "the phasing out of the Canadian Armed Forces."

-A moratorium on evictions, mortgage foreclosures and utility cut-offs due to unemployment.

-Another calls for the NDP to oppose the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism, arguing that it has "been used to attempt to silence those who denounce grave abuses of human rights of the Palestinian people."(Man would that ever come back to bite them if adopted)


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ndp-2021-convention-resolutions-1.5972881

I had been looking at the NDP as the party to support in the upcoming election.  But some of this is not that appealing.

As you have said all along, we will have to see what the various platforms are during the election.

I am really really really hoping a viable alternative to the Liberals emerges.

[Grey Fox]

The notion that Canadians hate to look into this fact is laughable. Our current government, it must be said, sometimes appears to do little else. A major criticism of our Prime Minister is that he sometimes sounds like he's been elected as our apologizer-in-chief. Of course it is easy to apologize, and hard to do anything constructive about the many and severe problems between native and non-native - unfortunately, we are now in a place where, with the best of intentions, we have created a system that practically guarantees continuing strife, with little end in sight.

This something that the pandemic has shed a very bright light on to me. RoC looks to the federal government for leadership in what seems to be everything. Quebecois' don't. Ontario, Alberta & Saskatchewan are run by bigots. 

We need a federal country wide drug insurance scheme Why Federal? Because you guys keep electing weak provincial governments? 

[Jacob]

We need a federal country wide drug insurance scheme Why Federal? Because you guys keep electing weak provincial governments? 

Ouch!