[Canada] Canadian Politics Redux

[Josephus]

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

So what do you suggest?

I don't know about legalities and such; but maybe Trudeau can convince the U.S. to subsidize some of the cost of it. I am sure there is legal stuff which covers what would happen if one side breaks the deal.

[crazy canuck]

They're asking us to impose tariffs on the US because Biden followed through on his stated commitment to cancel Keystone XL?

I guess we're in for more "Western alienation" if the rest of us are not going to want to shoot ourselves in the foot over something we saw coming from miles away?

I'm uncertain on the wisdom of tariffs, but am going to fight back on this "well it was in Biden's platform".

When Trump imposed tariffs on Canada's steel, that too was something in his election platform.  But nevertheless we retaliated with our own tariffs because it was a direct attack on a Canadian industry.

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

The analogy to the steel tariff is terrible.   The US tariff was unlawful and so justified our response.  The Canadian tariff was not justified on the basis that the steel tariff was "a direct attack on a Canadian industry".  That is the very Trumpist reasoning I am calling out.  The Rule of Law has to apply. 

It is entirely lawful for Biden to change US policy as to whether to build the pipeline.  An unlawful response is not good public policy nor does it do our country, nor your province for that matter, any good in the long run. 

[crazy canuck]

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

So what do you suggest?

I don't know about legalities and such; but maybe Trudeau can convince the U.S. to subsidize some of the cost of it. I am sure there is legal stuff which covers what would happen if one side breaks the deal.

Really no shot at compensation legally.  One side did not break a deal. The Premier of Alberta just made a very bad investment decision that could only work if Trump won a second term.

[Jacob]

I'm uncertain on the wisdom of tariffs, but am going to fight back on this "well it was in Biden's platform".

When Trump imposed tariffs on Canada's steel, that too was something in his election platform.  But nevertheless we retaliated with our own tariffs because it was a direct attack on a Canadian industry.

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

It was still ridiculously foolish of Kenney to throw Alberta government money into the project this year given Biden's clear signals.

[Barrister]

I'm uncertain on the wisdom of tariffs, but am going to fight back on this "well it was in Biden's platform".

When Trump imposed tariffs on Canada's steel, that too was something in his election platform.  But nevertheless we retaliated with our own tariffs because it was a direct attack on a Canadian industry.

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

It was still ridiculously foolish of Kenney to throw Alberta government money into the project this year given Biden's clear signals.

Your first take was much more conciliatory...

[Jacob]

Your first take was much more conciliatory...

I realized I didn't know if your arguments are reasonable or not. They seem reasonable on the face of it, but CC's point about the legality of the Steel Tariffs vs cancelling a permit were pretty persuasive.

[Josephus]

Hearing Payette's "resigned".

[Barrister]

Hearing Payette's "resigned".

And will no doubt get a healthy severence package.

But good.

[Grey Fox]

It seems Ottawa public workers can't handle Quebec Franco women and vice versa.

[Barrister]

It seems Ottawa public workers can't handle Quebec Franco women and vice versa.

No, Payette seems to have had problems wherever she goes.

CBC News has also reported Payette has faced similar claims at past workplaces, but the prime minister and his officials didn't conduct checks with her past employers before appointing her as Governor General.

Payette was given severance of roughly $200,000 when she resigned from the Montreal Science Centre in 2016 following complaints about her treatment of employees, say multiple sources at Canada Lands Company, the Crown corporation that employed her. In 2017, Payette left the Canadian Olympic Committee after two internal investigations into her treatment of staff that included claims of verbal harassment, sources with that organization said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rideau-hall-governor-general-payette-1.5861952

[viper37]

It's one of those weird dynamics that the Conservatives need the NDP to do reasonably well in order to win.  It's no co-incidence that the Harper years coincided with the Jack Layton years when the NDP was doing well in the polls.

Seems like you should be talking the NDP up, then, rather than dismiss them as wokeists.

BB is a Crown Prosecutor, not a politician.  Lying does not naturally come to him.

And yet he dismisses them as Wokeists.  Not lying in the sense that I don't think he realizes he is wrong.

I was tongue in cheek, but let's face the facts we have:
1) BB is one of our most conservative remaining members, both socially and economically.  Enabler or not, he ain't gonna sing praise of its sworn ennemy
2) He might have been stretching the truth, but not that much.  What does the NDP stands for that the LPC can not/will not enable?  Socialist parties used to be about apparent social justice while simply changing the hierarchy.  Outside of Trudeau, the LPC has never been that strong on wokist policies, it used to be much more about traditional canadian values, French bashing and anti-americanism.
3) On a personal level, I find few redeeming qualities to the current NDP leadership and party, but I am inclined to listen to your vision of what the NDP represents in terms of unique policy proposals.

[viper37]

This isn't 2015 any longer.  Keystone XL wasn't just a proposal any longer - it was a multi-billion dollar infrastructure project in the middle of construction.  Pulling a permit mid-way through construction directly harms Canada, and whatever the response should be, we shouldn't just roll over and accept it.

It harms Alberta.
It harms Canada in so much as the Liberal Party put its neck out there for Alberta, as an ill conceived way to fight rising seperatist sentiment.  I guess they thought one semi-dead seperatist movement per country was just enough
Oil is necessary, and oil sands are a reality that we need them.  Keeping a certain level of production in the country rather than importing it seems wise, but if it costs way too much compared to imports, for the environment as well as for our wallet, we will have to face the truth. 

In terms of global warming, the impact of using this oil is marginal compared to other, it's still oil.  But it does destroy water bodies and it requires a fuckton of water to extract it.  By simply accepting this level of inneficiency rather than impose stricter standards - standards that other industries have to meet, we have enabled the current situation: either we pollute and destroy to extract the oil or it stays in the ground.  Had more stringent rules been enabled in the past, the industry would have researched novel solutions.  Now, the prices of oil just aren't high enough to warrant it, and I'm unsure they'll skyrocket as before in the near-to-midterm future.

[viper37]

Hearing Payette's "resigned".

I was switching between CBC and RDI to watch the coverage, it was... interesting

CBC: This is a catastrophe.  We are in a minority govt and there's a vaccuum in leadership.  The Liberal govt is to blame for discarding the vetting process in its will to have more women (two women experts were commenting) in key positions.  Canada's institutions have been damaged by this whole process.

RDI: In terms of governance, yes, it's huge, it's the head of State.  In practical matters?  Bof.  Nothing is changing, business as usual, a new governor will be appointed shortly and we'll move on.

Two solitudes

[Barrister]

I was tongue in cheek, but let's face the facts we have:
1) BB is one of our most conservative remaining members, both socially and economically.  Enabler or not, he ain't gonna sing praise of its sworn ennemy
2) He might have been stretching the truth, but not that much.  What does the NDP stands for that the LPC can not/will not enable?  Socialist parties used to be about apparent social justice while simply changing the hierarchy.  Outside of Trudeau, the LPC has never been that strong on wokist policies, it used to be much more about traditional canadian values, French bashing and anti-americanism.
3) On a personal level, I find few redeeming qualities to the current NDP leadership and party, but I am inclined to listen to your vision of what the NDP represents in terms of unique policy proposals.

I've always strived for a "biased but calls em as I sees em" approach.  I wear my biases on my sleeve, but I'm not a politician.  If Trudeau or the NDP do something right, I say that.

The NDP has always had a tension between its western wings, which are somewhat more pragmatic because they can and do win elections, and it's eastern (mostly Ontario) wing, which doesn't.  Singh, though currently representing a BC riding, is from Toronto and that more eastern-NDP sensibility.

[crazy canuck]

It's one of those weird dynamics that the Conservatives need the NDP to do reasonably well in order to win.  It's no co-incidence that the Harper years coincided with the Jack Layton years when the NDP was doing well in the polls.

Seems like you should be talking the NDP up, then, rather than dismiss them as wokeists.

BB is a Crown Prosecutor, not a politician.  Lying does not naturally come to him.

And yet he dismisses them as Wokeists.  Not lying in the sense that I don't think he realizes he is wrong.

I was tongue in cheek, but let's face the facts we have:
1) BB is one of our most conservative remaining members, both socially and economically.  Enabler or not, he ain't gonna sing praise of its sworn ennemy
2) He might have been stretching the truth, but not that much.  What does the NDP stands for that the LPC can not/will not enable?  Socialist parties used to be about apparent social justice while simply changing the hierarchy.  Outside of Trudeau, the LPC has never been that strong on wokist policies, it used to be much more about traditional canadian values, French bashing and anti-americanism.
3) On a personal level, I find few redeeming qualities to the current NDP leadership and party, but I am inclined to listen to your vision of what the NDP represents in terms of unique policy proposals.

I can tell you I have been very impressed with our BC NDP government.  If our Federal government operated half as well as that I would be pleased.