Game Changing Weapons of the Third Reich

[Monoriu]

I sometimes wonder if the mere presence of these wonder weapon programmes serve as a moral booster.  Without them, the Germans might not have resisted as long as they did.  It provided hope in a hopeless situation.

[derspiess]

I sometimes wonder if the mere presence of these wonder weapon programmes serve as a moral booster.  Without them, the Germans might not have resisted as long as they did.  It provided hope in a hopeless situation.

I think that, along with the terror some of the weapons produced, was an intangible benefit to otherwise wasteful endeavors.

[Alatriste]

It is just so hard to say - certainly much harder than arguing for the Me-262 to be commissioned a year early.

True, true, but a nice WI nontheless 

BTW you have any idea if the Me-110 could have been made into a dedicated fighter-bomber? Say change the four MG17 and the two 20mm MG/FF in the nose for a pair of 37mm FlaK 36, the same that the Ju-87G carried and dump the rear gunner to save weight. Would it have been feasable? Would the airframe support it? And throw in a few hardpoints to carry bombs and later ATG rockets under the airframe if it would be possible.

The reason I'm asking (other then actually having a soft spot for the Me-110) is if it would be possible for the Germans to have a Mosquito type plane early in the war. The Me-110 actually had decent maxium speed (560 km/h, same as the Bf-109) what made it a bad fighter was from my understanding it's lack of maneuverability, it also had decent cruising speed (480km/h), and certainly much better then the Ju-87 maxiumum speed (402 km/h).

The Me-110 has got a lot of flak because post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design. It was conceived when there was no radar and in consequence the task of the bombers was much easier, because they could choose when and where to strike and do it without any forewarning. The answer of the Luftwaffe at this problem was to take the initiative and hunt enemy bombers over their bases, actually the opposite of an escort fighter. That explains pretty much everything about the strong and weak points of the plane, its long range, firepower, high top speed and its low maneuverability too. Probably its worst point was the rear gunner, a really big mistake (that ironically made the Me-110 easy to convert into a radar-equipped night fighter)

Regarding the possibility of making the plane a dedicated fighter-bomber / light bomber... well, I think it would have been much better to design one from scratch. For starters, the Me-110 fuselage is very narrow, unlike Mosquito's roomy fuselage, a point vital for flexibility. Besides, that was was the Junkers 88 was supposed to be and probably would have been without added 'improvements' like dive bombing capacity.

[Zanza]

I sometimes wonder if the mere presence of these wonder weapon programmes serve as a moral booster.  Without them, the Germans might not have resisted as long as they did.  It provided hope in a hopeless situation.

The Japanese didn't give up either despite not having wonder weapons.

[Monoriu]

The Japanese didn't give up either despite not having wonder weapons.

They have the Bushido code.

[Caliga]

Wrong.  They had balloon bombs. 

[Monoriu]

Wrong.  They had balloon bombs. 

Actually, their wonder weapon was called Kamikaze.

[grumbler]

The Me-110 has got a lot of flak because post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design. It was conceived when there was no radar and in consequence the task of the bombers was much easier, because they could choose when and where to strike and do it without any forewarning. The answer of the Luftwaffe at this problem was to take the initiative and hunt enemy bombers over their bases, actually the opposite of an escort fighter. That explains pretty much everything about the strong and weak points of the plane, its long range, firepower, high top speed and its low maneuverability too. Probably its worst point was the rear gunner, a really big mistake (that ironically made the Me-110 easy to convert into a radar-equipped night fighter) 

I always get nervous when some internet poster starts explaining that the reason why a system is under-appreciated is because "historians" have failed to understand something that the poster somehow knows.

The Bf-110, insofar as I have seen from my general readings on WW2, was built to the specifications for a long-ranged escort fighter that had the capacity to carry internal bombs for close air support (the latter requirement later eliminated).  If you have a source for your assertion that the Bf-110 (not the Me-110, BTW) was designed to attack enemy bombers at their bases, I would love to hear it.

The second crewman wasn't a "mistake," he was a requirement for long-ranged aircraft (which would need a navigator).  Given the aircraft's extreme load-carrying capability, the inclusion of a second crewman cost very little in the way of performance.

The reason why the Bf-110 has a poor reputation isn't because "post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design," but because contemporary Luftwaffe officers felt that it was an inadequate design even for its designed mission, and had planned to replace it before it had been in production for a year.  that it survived long enough to become a decent night fighter was not due to the excellence of its design, but due to a lack of a replacement.

Regarding the possibility of making the plane a dedicated fighter-bomber / light bomber... well, I think it would have been much better to design one from scratch. For starters, the Me-110 fuselage is very narrow, unlike Mosquito's roomy fuselage, a point vital for flexibility. Besides, that was was the Junkers 88 was supposed to be and probably would have been without added 'improvements' like dive bombing capacity.

The Ju-88 also lacked internal volume and had to carry its ordnance externally, for the most part.  I would argue that the Luftwaffe simply underestimated the need to get tonnage on target, so all of their aircraft had small bomb loads for their role.  I would agree, though, that the Bf-110 didn't have the excess volume necessary for the fast bomber role, and that adding more ordnance externally would slow it down to the point where the "schnell" turned to "snail."

[Caliga]

grumber, don't tell me you didn't know that random people on the Interweb are smarter than respected historians!

Also, random people on the internet will only deign to date supermodels.  Everyone else has some unacceptable flaw, no matter how minute. 

[Ape]

The Me-110 has got a lot of flak because post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design. It was conceived when there was no radar and in consequence the task of the bombers was much easier, because they could choose when and where to strike and do it without any forewarning. The answer of the Luftwaffe at this problem was to take the initiative and hunt enemy bombers over their bases, actually the opposite of an escort fighter. That explains pretty much everything about the strong and weak points of the plane, its long range, firepower, high top speed and its low maneuverability too. Probably its worst point was the rear gunner, a really big mistake (that ironically made the Me-110 easy to convert into a radar-equipped night fighter) 

I always get nervous when some internet poster starts explaining that the reason why a system is under-appreciated is because "historians" have failed to understand something that the poster somehow knows.

The Bf-110, insofar as I have seen from my general readings on WW2, was built to the specifications for a long-ranged escort fighter that had the capacity to carry internal bombs for close air support (the latter requirement later eliminated).  If you have a source for your assertion that the Bf-110 (not the Me-110, BTW) was designed to attack enemy bombers at their bases, I would love to hear it.

The second crewman wasn't a "mistake," he was a requirement for long-ranged aircraft (which would need a navigator).  Given the aircraft's extreme load-carrying capability, the inclusion of a second crewman cost very little in the way of performance.

The reason why the Bf-110 has a poor reputation isn't because "post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design," but because contemporary Luftwaffe officers felt that it was an inadequate design even for its designed mission, and had planned to replace it before it had been in production for a year.  that it survived long enough to become a decent night fighter was not due to the excellence of its design, but due to a lack of a replacement.

Regarding the possibility of making the plane a dedicated fighter-bomber / light bomber... well, I think it would have been much better to design one from scratch. For starters, the Me-110 fuselage is very narrow, unlike Mosquito's roomy fuselage, a point vital for flexibility. Besides, that was was the Junkers 88 was supposed to be and probably would have been without added 'improvements' like dive bombing capacity.

The Ju-88 also lacked internal volume and had to carry its ordnance externally, for the most part.  I would argue that the Luftwaffe simply underestimated the need to get tonnage on target, so all of their aircraft had small bomb loads for their role.  I would agree, though, that the Bf-110 didn't have the excess volume necessary for the fast bomber role, and that adding more ordnance externally would slow it down to the point where the "schnell" turned to "snail."

Hmm yes the Messerschmitt Bf-110 (which if we are to be anal, is correct) might not be ideal as a fast attack plane due to the issues raised.

The problem with the Ju-88 was not only the lack of internal bomb load, but it's rather slow speed, the same problem all german medium bombers had. Which was the reason I looked to the Messerschmitt 110 if it could be instead of used as a fighter and instead be utilized as a fast attack bomber.

[grumbler]

... Which was the reason I looked to the Messerschmitt 110 if it could be instead of used as a fighter and instead be utilized as a fast attack bomber.

As I said, I don't really know.  It was certainly use that way at times, but I don't know how much its speed was be affected by a significant external bomb load.  It certainly seemed to have plenty of load-carrying capacity (at least compared to German medium bombers).

[Razgovory]

I sometimes wonder if the mere presence of these wonder weapon programmes serve as a moral booster.  Without them, the Germans might not have resisted as long as they did.  It provided hope in a hopeless situation.

I think that, along with the terror some of the weapons produced, was an intangible benefit to otherwise wasteful endeavors.

Was morale a big problem in the Third Reich (serious question.  I don't know.)

[Alatriste]

I sometimes wonder if the mere presence of these wonder weapon programmes serve as a moral booster.  Without them, the Germans might not have resisted as long as they did.  It provided hope in a hopeless situation.

I think that, along with the terror some of the weapons produced, was an intangible benefit to otherwise wasteful endeavors.

Was morale a big problem in the Third Reich (serious question.  I don't know.)

That's a big question. The least that can be said is, Hitler and the Nazis never forgot that the Great War ended when the sailors mutinied (of course by then the war was lost anyway, but they thought otherwise). They always feared morale could fail once again.

[Alatriste]

The Me-110 has got a lot of flak because post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design. It was conceived when there was no radar and in consequence the task of the bombers was much easier, because they could choose when and where to strike and do it without any forewarning. The answer of the Luftwaffe at this problem was to take the initiative and hunt enemy bombers over their bases, actually the opposite of an escort fighter. That explains pretty much everything about the strong and weak points of the plane, its long range, firepower, high top speed and its low maneuverability too. Probably its worst point was the rear gunner, a really big mistake (that ironically made the Me-110 easy to convert into a radar-equipped night fighter) 

I always get nervous when some internet poster starts explaining that the reason why a system is under-appreciated is because "historians" have failed to understand something that the poster somehow knows.

The Bf-110, insofar as I have seen from my general readings on WW2, was built to the specifications for a long-ranged escort fighter that had the capacity to carry internal bombs for close air support (the latter requirement later eliminated).  If you have a source for your assertion that the Bf-110 (not the Me-110, BTW) was designed to attack enemy bombers at their bases, I would love to hear it.

The second crewman wasn't a "mistake," he was a requirement for long-ranged aircraft (which would need a navigator).  Given the aircraft's extreme load-carrying capability, the inclusion of a second crewman cost very little in the way of performance.

The reason why the Bf-110 has a poor reputation isn't because "post-war historians didn't understand the concept behind its design," but because contemporary Luftwaffe officers felt that it was an inadequate design even for its designed mission, and had planned to replace it before it had been in production for a year.  that it survived long enough to become a decent night fighter was not due to the excellence of its design, but due to a lack of a replacement.

Regarding the possibility of making the plane a dedicated fighter-bomber / light bomber... well, I think it would have been much better to design one from scratch. For starters, the Me-110 fuselage is very narrow, unlike Mosquito's roomy fuselage, a point vital for flexibility. Besides, that was was the Junkers 88 was supposed to be and probably would have been without added 'improvements' like dive bombing capacity.

The Ju-88 also lacked internal volume and had to carry its ordnance externally, for the most part.  I would argue that the Luftwaffe simply underestimated the need to get tonnage on target, so all of their aircraft had small bomb loads for their role.  I would agree, though, that the Bf-110 didn't have the excess volume necessary for the fast bomber role, and that adding more ordnance externally would slow it down to the point where the "schnell" turned to "snail."

Will try to find reliable info, but IIRC in September 1939 the 110 was still entering service in numbers, some designated Zerstorer units were still equipped with Bf109, and the plane was originally conceived as a a kind of long range interceptor (and the Bf109, as a short range interceptor, almost a point defence weapon... of course I'm speaking of a date circa 1935-1936)

Regarding the second crewman, perhaps he was meant as navigator (the British did the same with their carrier-borne 'fighters', for example, and the Russians when moving fighter units oftenly used a bomber as a guide aircraft for them) but it was still a mistake!

I certainly went too far with the 'roomy' thingie but the Ju-88 was oroginally meant to be an extremely fast bomber that wouldn't need defensive weapons, i.e. the German equivalent of the Mosquito.

[Alatriste]

Some food for tought

"From 1938 onwards the Luftwaffe had developed the Me 110 twin-engined fighter; called the "heavy" or "destroyer" fighter (Zerstörer). The role of this fighter was theoretically to be the pursuit of enemy formations over the Reich or returning over their own territory... The twin-engine fighter was something new in German pre-war concepts and in the Staff lectures its experimental nature was constantly emphasized."

From "The Rise and Fall of the German Air Force 1933-1945", issued by the Air Ministry (A.C.A.S. , 1948) quoted in "Luftwaffe fighter-bombers and Destroyers' by John Vasco




"The genesis of the Messerschmidtt 110 evolved out of a requirement of the German Air Ministry in the early months of 1934 for a twin-engined heavy fighter. which would be given the name 'Zerstörer', literally 'Destroyer', which would cleave a path ahead of bomber formations, and that could also carry out the role of strategic reconnaissance and bomber"

"Luftwaffe fighter-bombers and Destroyers" by John Vasco, page 2




"In the history of aviation there can be few aircraft that have been maligned more unjustly than the Bf 110".

Alfred Price (Profile 207 - Messerschmidtt Bf 110 Night Fighters, page 41)




"But it is also true - and this is important because it is rarely mentioned - that the primary rôle of the Bf 110 was "the pursuit of enemy formations operating over the Reich or returning over their own territory". The aircraft was mainly intended as a "destroyer" of bombers, not fighters".

Ibid., page 42