U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes

[alfred russel]

I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.

I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?

[grumbler]

Where is the secret jesus code there?

No jesus code, but a real diplomatic incident with dead people and an attempted assassination two weeks ago.

What does that have to do with "Fundy Stupid Shit" in the post you were quoting and thus responding to?

There will be several real real diplomatic incidents with dead people and several attempted assassinations in the next few months, no matter what happens.

[grumbler]

Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.

Exactly.  That allegation was made up.  It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.

[grumbler]

Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.

Agreed.  It is the American Christians that have those weird dietary superstitions and taboos that possess some patina of religious "contracts" or something, right?  I keep getting all those crude superstitions and genital mutilations mixed up between the different crackpot groups.

[The Minsky Moment]

Unfortunately, the trend in America appears to be favoring the rise of Christianized neo-paganism, where crude superstitions and magical beliefs are touched over with a patina of Christian jargon.

Agreed.  It is the American Christians that have those weird dietary superstitions and taboos that possess some patina of religious "contracts" or something, right? 

It is true that many American Christians abide by dietary restrictions and many if not all enter into and respect contracts.  Neither of these things related to the problem I mentioned.

[grumbler]

It is true that many American Christians abide by dietary restrictions and many if not all enter into and respect contracts.  Neither of these things related to the problem I mentioned.

And I am agreeing with you.  The return of Christianity to its pagan roots, with just the patina of Christian jargon, is distressing.  There are already so many religions which are just a batch of crude superstitions and pagan rituals about not farming every nth year and unclean foods that another is absolutely unneeded.  People who want that stuff should just convert (a little dick-snipping, if needed, shouldn't be too high a price to pay to become a "chosen one" or whatever floats their boat).

[Viking]

why should we care? ehh.. cause they kill people?

I'm thinking the types who are going to go around killing people are going to go around killing people regardless of whether or not some company in Michigan puts "secret jesus codes" on some sights.

yes, but at the islamic fundie's morning meeting they will be discussing who to kill today... kill me plz isn't really the message you want them to get...

[PRC]

Daily Mail is reporting that British Troops in Afganistan will be being issued this equipment as well: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244440/U-S-military-weapons-dubbed-Jesus-guns-inscribed-secret-Bible-messages.html

[Malthus]

Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.

Exactly.  That allegation was made up.  It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.

Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.

The infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm

Indeed, the cartridge fiasco wasn't the sole cause of the problem. It fed into a genuine concern - that the Brits simply did not care about Indian religious sensibilities (as evidenced by allowing and even encouraging missionaries and evangelization).

It is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.

I disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a good idea?

[Malthus]

I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.

I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?

I hope the effect is not to create more folks requiring feeding ammunition at.

[grumbler]

Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.

The infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm

Books on the topic, like Kaye (p. 381) and Hibbert (p.53) point out that no pig fat was ever used, and little beef fat (and even that intended only for British units) as sheep's fat was cheaper than either.  Further, they point out that the regiments where the revolt began had not received any kind of Enfield ammuniition with any greasing at all.  The troops had oiled the cartridges themselves, and then complained that the papers was made with pig and cow fat 9which was, of course, not only untrue but impossible).

As a side note, the Enfield was replacing the older two-groove rifles just in the rifle companies.  It had not yet begun to be distributed to the center companies of the native  regiments, who retined their smoothbores.

It is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.

I love it when your opinions become "most certainly... the case"!    I don not think the rebellion could have been avoided by 1857, when the rifle issue erupted.  By that time, the sepoys were too convinced that the British meant to "Christianize" India, and i am not sure they were wrong.

So I guess what i am saying is that it is my opinion that what you consider "most certainly not the case" was, in fact, the case.  Pretty much everything the British did to allay sepoy concerns was seen as dissembling but the sepoys, and once you reach that state further efforts are almost certainly fruitless, because they cannot be seen for what they are.

I disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a good idea?

I dunno to whom this is addressed.  Whoever is arguing that the revolt was a good thing for the Brits probably has not done much reading about it.

[Razgovory]

Sorta reminisent of the events leading up to the great Indian mutiny, where it was alleged that the sepoy's cartridges were smeared with the fat of pigs and cows.

Exactly.  That allegation was made up.  It would have been made up no matter what the *British* did, so there was no action or inaction the British could have undertaken to change it.

Not so; the cartridges were in fact so smeared. The Brits changed this when informed it was giving offense, and in some cases allowed sepoys to smear their own with non-symbolically bad lubricants; but the damage was done.

The infamous cartridge difficulties combined religious sensibilities with technological change. For years the EIC had relied on a simple but inaccurate smooth bore musket. It was decided to introduce a more accurate muzzle loading Enfield Rifled Musket. One way to speed up the loading process was the introduction of a paper cartridge with the bullet sitting on the exact quantity of powder needed. The loader was required to bite open this paper cartridge to expose the powder. The original cartridges were made in Britain and had been covered in tallow to help protect the cartridge from the elements. Unfortunately the tallow had been made from a beef and pork fat. To the British users of these cartridges, this made no big deal. Hindu and Muslim users were horrified at the defiling fat. The EIC quickly realised its blunder and replaced the animal fat with vegetable fat but the damage had already been done. To Hindus and Muslims alike, their worst fears of being ritually humiliated had been confirmed. Many assumed that this had been a deliberate policy by the Europeans who were looking to impose their own religion on the sub-continent.

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armycampaigns/indiancampaigns/mutiny/mutiny.htm

Indeed, the cartridge fiasco wasn't the sole cause of the problem. It fed into a genuine concern - that the Brits simply did not care about Indian religious sensibilities (as evidenced by allowing and even encouraging missionaries and evangelization).

It is most certainly not the case that the rebellion would have happend "no matter what the Brits did". The Brits could have taken positive steps, before it got to that point, to demonstrate that they were more impartial in matters of religion.

I disagree that the logical conclusion would have been for the Brits to smear on pig and cow fat, Indians be damned, because they would just protest and rebel anyway. That would simply feed into the attitude which was the source of the problem - that the Brits did not give a shit about (and were actively hostile to in many cases) the religious sensibilities of the soldiers they relied on. How on earth is doing that a good idea?

Thing is, I don't think the British actually used this pig-cow fat.  Muslims said it was pig fat and Hindus said it was cow fat.  It seems unlikely that it would contain both.

[Razgovory]

Dammit Grumbler beat me to it.

[alfred russel]

I certainly sympathize with this POV. I merely point out that folks get riled up over symbolism and so, to the extent it can do us harm, feeding them ammunition isn't a particularly good idea. It isn't like we are going to compromise our own values by *not* having semi-secret religious codes on our military hardware.

I thought the point of the scopes was to feed them ammunition?

I hope the effect is not to create more folks requiring feeding ammunition at.

If you in the business of selling scopes it may help you hit your quarterly numbers.

[Tonitrus]

I remember, when they were changing our utility uniform, to include new no-polish suede boots, there was a big stink created when it was speculated those boots were to be made of pigskin.