Women in combat

[Admiral Yi]

Erxleben sucked as a punter and dedicated kick-off kicker.
(let's see who gets THAT reference)

Frederich Munchhausen Erxleben, professional longshoreman and failed poet, was the dedicated punter of punts and kick off kicker for the Canton Bulldogs, 1920-1924. 

[CountDeMoney]

Erxleben sucked as a punter and dedicated kick-off kicker.
(let's see who gets THAT reference)

Frederich Munchhausen Erxleben, professional longshoreman and failed poet, was the dedicated punter of punts and kick off kicker for the Canton Bulldogs, 1920-1924.

You're so full of shit.


He was an accomplished poet.

[Hansmeister]

It is an immutable fact that women have 50% less muscles than men, it's genetic and fixed at birth.  Don't confuse the strength of muscles with the amount of muscles, two different things.

First, do you have a cite on that?

Second - you left out the words ON AVERAGE.  I fully accept that, on average, women have fewer muscles than men.  That does not mean however that some women do not in fact have more muscles than some men.

You do know that the number of muscles fibers is fixed at birth depending on gender and cannot be changed?  it is the strength of the muscles that can vary depending on exercise.  Women have a similar amount of muscle fibers in the lower body, but significantly fewer in the upper body.

[Hansmeister]

Another point would be that, if very few are able to qualify, is it worth the trouble? If 1-2% of your combat infantry would be women, is that worth addressing all the social problems that have been brought up, or would it be easier to just recruit 1-2% more men? Even if it would be easier to recruit extra men, is it fair to limit the opportunities for the women that could do these jobs?

I think that, in the name of justice, we would need to ignore the percentages of women who would qualify to carry out a role as a factor in deciding whether we would allow women to apply for that role. 

As I have said, I think that, forty years from now, people will be amazed that this was even an issue.  However, that doesn't mean that it is easy to get there from here.  In fact, I don't see a good way to do it.

Gradual relaxation may be the answer (i.e. have a plan to transition slowly from "no women in combat" to "no job closed to qualified women") but that still doesn't deal with the issue of fairness to a woman who wants to be, and could be, a grunt right now.  We can live with imperfect justice, but clearly it is better not to.

I think it would probably be more useful to discuss how to get there from here, rather than whether or not it is wise to go there.  Wise or not, it seems sure to happen.

In forty years it won't be an issue because all Soldiers will be wearing exoskeletons.

[Barrister]

It is an immutable fact that women have 50% less muscles than men, it's genetic and fixed at birth.  Don't confuse the strength of muscles with the amount of muscles, two different things.

First, do you have a cite on that?

Second - you left out the words ON AVERAGE.  I fully accept that, on average, women have fewer muscles than men.  That does not mean however that some women do not in fact have more muscles than some men.

You do know that the number of muscles fibers is fixed at birth depending on gender and cannot be changed?  it is the strength of the muscles that can vary depending on exercise.  Women have a similar amount of muscle fibers in the lower body, but significantly fewer in the upper body.

So every man is equally strong, and every woman is equally (but less so) strong?

Really - do you have a cite on that?

[Tamas]

To supplement Siege's point, a jailguard in the city I work at shot his colleauge, the woman he lived together with, in a supposed fit of jealous rage, then killed himself.

[saskganesh]

To supplement Siege's point, a jailguard in the city I work at shot his colleauge, the woman he lived together with, in a supposed fit of jealous rage, then killed himself.

thus we can be relieved that when Siege shoots his own wife out of PTSD-derived insanity, it won't be because of current workplace issues.

[PDH]

You do know that the number of muscles fibers is fixed at birth depending on gender and cannot be changed?  it is the strength of the muscles that can vary depending on exercise.  Women have a similar amount of muscle fibers in the lower body, but significantly fewer in the upper body.

Hans is partially right.  Women have, on average (note, Hans, this is average and can vary quite a bit...) about 70% of the muscle fibers as men.  Lower body it is about the same strength, normalized for weight (and actually stress tests show such weight normalization has women come out slightly ahead often), while upper body women have fewer fibers, on average.

To cut down your argument to a realistic level, Hans (and I know you thrive on hyperbole), there are many women whose strengths falls well within what a male military recruit would require - yes, this means muscle fibers.  I assume that these women may well be the ones who would be on the front lines hauling things.

Don't confuse averages with...oh what I am I saying, it is Hans misusing facts!

[Siege]

Also, for what it is worth (and I'd be interested if someone with military experience correcting this if it is wrong), I don't think the standards for front line units are bright line. Someone who can pass the fitness tests will not necessarily be considered at an acceptable level of fitness in an infantry unit by the NCOs.

Army wide the minimum to pass is 60% in each of the 3 events: Push-ups, Sit-ups, and the 2 mile run.
How many push-ups you actually need to do to achieve 60% depends of your sex and age group. The older you are the more push-ups and less sit-ups you need.
That 60% each means a total of 180 out of 300 maximum.
That's the standard to Army wide and to pass basic training.

Now, in the infantry, the minimum is always over 250, at the commanders discretion. In my battalion, the 3 line infantry companies require 270, while my platoon, as the recon platoon for the battalion, requires 280. The guys in the headquarter company that are not infantry are only required the 180 army standard.

Keep in mine though, that the 180 minimum is 60% in each event. If you max out you push-ups, getting a 100, and get 100 in sit-ups, but only a 50 in the 2 mile run, you got a total of 250, way over the 180 minimum, but because you didn't get the minimum of 60 in the 2 mile run, you just failed your PT test.

[Malthus]

Hey Siege, what do you know of the Caracal Battalion?

[Neil]

In forty years it won't be an issue because all Soldiers will be wearing exoskeletons.

Wrong.

[dps]

To supplement Siege's point, a jailguard in the city I work at shot his colleauge, the woman he lived together with, in a supposed fit of jealous rage, then killed himself.

So in other words, the same argument can be used to defend sex discrimination in civilian jobs?  Uh, that's not a particularly good point.

[Siege]

Hey Siege, what do you know of the Caracal Battalion?

Not much. I've heard about it. Some people like it, most people I know don't take then seriously. They always get posted to safe areas, and train for disaster relief missions. The IDF is afraid to commit them into the real fight, in the territories. You can tell what units the IDF consider to be efective by the places they get deployed to.

[Siege]

In forty years it won't be an issue because all Soldiers will be wearing exoskeletons.

Wrong.

Right.

Stop crushing my dreams.

[Zanza]

Germany has women in infantry combat units. They have also opened up the most elite special forces unit to women. EDIT: Apparently no women has so far fulfilled the physical standards for that special forces unit though so they are only working in supportive roles there.

Not sure if women can go into all units though, there may still be some exceptions. I've never seen a women in the representative unit they use to welcome guests of state for example. But it could be that that unit only has conscripts, no professional soldiers.

According to a recent study, about 43% of male soldiers think that female soldiers don't have the necessary strength for some tasks. 25% say they don't trust women in combat situations.
2/3 of the male soldiers see admitting women to combat units positively. 15% think that the army can no longer fulfill its functions with women in combat units.
85% think that the general communication and atmosphere has improved with women joining.