Raz goes on a date Pre-AAR

[Habbaku]

Punch.Him.In.The.Nuts.

He's a pretty nice guy, actually--funny, too.  Curiously, I think his techniques must actually work.  He has the worst geek-loser voice in the world.

[Drakken]

Oh Drakkan, you're buying into that whole "the seduction community" crap with all its techniques and bullshit pseudo philosophy?  I guess it's an amusing way to play around for a few years, but if you take it seriously and try to defend it as a legitimate world view you're getting on deep water.

Whatever rocks your boat, and what rocks mine. Free will, remember? Each our own paths.

Like I need to justify myself, anyway. I don't have to justify anything.  I find things there interesting and worth my interest to play around and explore, as you say, and make judgements on my own. And what I have read until now and experimented does work from my poor, anodectical and unscientific experiences. If things don't work, I don't use them.

However, I don't buy in NLP or these kinds of woo-woo mind control bullshit. 

And you know I have a materialistic, realistic worldview, and that I abhor idealistic crock values that make people bellyfeel better about themselves than they really are. Might be depressing, but surprisingly I am very comfortable with this idea.

[Valmy]

First, only a fool would admit to a date that she made a woman up to get her. I'd just say that I stopped seeing her.

Naturally.

Second, girls use tactics, and plentiful of them, to weed out the guys that are not that interesting or have undesirable traits. These are called tests.

They probably do but the difference is they do them intuitively.  There is no test community out there to train girls how to properly test their mates.  But considering the sorts of men alot of women end up with maybe there should be

Third, a woman who is not interested would not take the bait, she'd say something neutral and impersonal like "okey, have fun!". If she changes her gears it was because she can be nexted and lose a potential mate, which happens all the time due to indecision and bad communication. She already had interest anyway, just that she was pushed to a decision, so it is fair game. Just like salespeople who argue they have a customer ready to buy it, that he comes back in an hour, so you need to take the decision now.

I am not disagreed with the fundamental gamesmanship here.  I am simply saying it is taking manipulation to a whole new level, one that is not generally expected in this sort of scenario.  There is nothing inherently wrong with this so long as, you know, you don't get caught.

[DisturbedPervert]

There is no test community out there to train girls how to properly test their mates. 

It's called the magazine rack at the grocery store checkout aisle.

[Drakken]

They probably do but the difference is they do them intuitively.  There is no test community out there to train girls how to properly test their mates.  But considering the sorts of men alot of women end up with maybe there should be

Some women do start to lighten-up to pick up on these tactics, and there are workshops by women to learn how to spot and fend off tactics used by PUAs. But surprisingly, a few women do strive to become female pick-upers as well.

[Valmy]

And you know I have a materialistic, realistic worldview, and that I abhor idealistic crock values that make people bellyfeel better about themselves than they really are.

I don't know I usually have values because they are things I actually see value in.

Might be depressing, but surprisingly I am very comfortable with this idea.

There is nothing depressing about it.  Life is inherently meaningless IMO and it is up to individual to find his or her own meaning.  If this is the one you like then go for it.  But it no more or less bullshit than anybody else's.

[Valmy]

It's called the magazine rack at the grocery store checkout aisle.

Yeah I am sure those 'how to blow his mind' articles are really practically useful

The seduction community stuff probably does work though, if for no other reason it gets you out there taking actions and thinking about what you do and say.  There is simply no substitute for putting in the effort and the time.

[Valmy]

Some women do start to lighten-up to pick up on these tactics, and there are workshops by women to learn how to spot and fend off tactics used by PUAs. But surprisingly, a few women do strive to become female pick-upers as well.

What does that have to do with learning how to run tests?

[Drakken]

I don't know I usually have values because they are things I actually see value in.

So do I, but these are values we choose personally, not values imposed by hysterical moralists and bleeding hearts around us.

There is nothing depressing about it. Life is inherently meaningless IMO and it is up to individual to find his or her own meaning. If this is the one you like then go for it.  But it no more or less bullshit than anybody else's.

Totally agree with ya on that, pal. Good or bad, we all end up in the dump.

[Drakken]

Some women do start to lighten-up to pick up on these tactics, and there are workshops by women to learn how to spot and fend off tactics used by PUAs. But surprisingly, a few women do strive to become female pick-upers as well.

What does that have to do with learning how to run tests?

As they are the ones who end up choosing and validating their mate, they don't have to learn it, they just dos it to see if the potential mate corresponds to their ideals and values.

Instincts. 

[Valmy]

As they are the ones who end up choosing and validating their mate, they don't have to learn it, they just dos it to see if the potential mate corresponds to their ideals and values.

Instincts. 

Is it not therefore logical than in the situations where it is we who are choosing and validating that we do something similar without conciously realizing it?  You know to make sure she is not psycho and so forth.

[Barrister]

As lawyer and prosecutor, you should know how easy and tempting it is to use deceit (and I use this word in its larger sense) to simplify interactions or gain an advantage. Even a law-abiding witness can be tempted to use it to save the butt of someone he or she cares about, even if it means only to twist facts a little bit or give them another spin without going all the way to perjury.

Convincing juries is rarely based on facts alone, except when a smoking gun is presented or an ironclad witness is present, but on how both counsels spin this circumstancial information and present their synthesis of what has happened (or could have happened) as a workable, probable scenario.

You don't have a lot of experience in dealing with juries, do you.

The first and last thing I stress with my witnesses is to "tell the truth".  If a jury gets a hint that you are trying to be evasive, or stretch the truth even slightly, that witness's credibility is over.  The best witness is the one that is open and honest about their shortcomings.

A person can pull a fast one in court.  It's happened to me.  But it generally only happens once.  Once I know you to be a liar I treat you accordingly in future.  There's even defence lawyers where if one lawyer says "I need an adjournment - my client's grandma is sick" I'll say "no problem", whereas others I'll say "I'm going to need a hospital note".

I'm sure little BS mind tricks can work initially, but it's no way to build a long-lasting relationship.  And it's a hell of a depressing way to look at the world.

[Drakken]

As they are the ones who end up choosing and validating their mate, they don't have to learn it, they just dos it to see if the potential mate corresponds to their ideals and values.

Instincts. 

Is it not therefore logical than in the situations where it is we who are choosing and validating that we do something similar without conciously realizing it?  You know to make sure she is not psycho and so forth.

I think that males do test instintively as well their potential mates. We just judge women on different qualities as a whole because our criterias of attraction are different.

However, it is undeniable that it has become harder for guys to play the game nowadays, even to actually approach women, for various reasons irrelevant to the present questions. Thus the need to develop strategies by trial and error, to strive to make it an easier and more fulfilling experience for males to fulfill their natural needs.

[Berkut]

I look at the seduction community crap as nothing more than advanced game playing strategies, and the realization that you are in fact playing a game, therefore you should go about it in as straighforward manner as possible - within the bounds of the game.

BB, call me crazy, but I am guessing you didn't spend a lot of time trying to pick up women in bars anyway, right?

Not that I did either - but I think the seduction community stuff is pretty fascinating anyway. I've never tried it, and am old enough that I don't think I would want to pick up the kind of women it would work on anyway, but it is still pretty interesting from a strictly competitive standpoint,.

[Drakken]

As lawyer and prosecutor, you should know how easy and tempting it is to use deceit (and I use this word in its larger sense) to simplify interactions or gain an advantage. Even a law-abiding witness can be tempted to use it to save the butt of someone he or she cares about, even if it means only to twist facts a little bit or give them another spin without going all the way to perjury.

Convincing juries is rarely based on facts alone, except when a smoking gun is presented or an ironclad witness is present, but on how both counsels spin this circumstancial information and present their synthesis of what has happened (or could have happened) as a workable, probable scenario.

You don't have a lot of experience in dealing with juries, do you.

The first and last thing I stress with my witnesses is to "tell the truth".  If a jury gets a hint that you are trying to be evasive, or stretch the truth even slightly, that witness's credibility is over.  The best witness is the one that is open and honest about their shortcomings.

A person can pull a fast one in court.  It's happened to me.  But it generally only happens once.  Once I know you to be a liar I treat you accordingly in future.  There's even defence lawyers where if one lawyer says "I need an adjournment - my client's grandma is sick" I'll say "no problem", whereas others I'll say "I'm going to need a hospital note".

I'm sure little BS mind tricks can work initially, but it's no way to build a long-lasting relationship.  And it's a hell of a depressing way to look at the world.

I'm still waiting for my first jury duty call-up.

As for my experience, well I often regret not joining law school when I entered university, instead of going to a dead-end formation in Pol. Sci.  I wanted to become a prosecutor.

As for witnesses, I am not the one that will teach you that "truth" is a relative word in a world with imperfect information, and thus depends on its spin and the interpretation given to facts. Which is why defence lawyers often use different, even highly improbable spins in an attempt to create reasonable doubt with the same facts and information you have as prosecutor.

Never got a surprise spin or information emerge from counter-interrogatories from the defence, in which the "truth" was not as clear-cut as you thought even when you thought the witness had the best intentions?