Raz goes on a date Pre-AAR

[Malthus]

Heh, when I was actually going out, I never thought of any of that stuff. 

That is because you were successful.  As a miserable failure for years I had to adjust things all the time.  Eventually I basically changed dramatically how I interacted with people...I think it was largely for the better.  I did it mostly myself though trial and error.

I think the main trick is simply to do it alot and not be so emotionally attached to the outcome if you are struggling.  For those of you who do it well naturally well you suck.

I wasn't particularly successful quantity-wise, just lucky quality-wise.

Anyway, I take no credit for it, my wife asked me out - I was clueless. 

[Drakken]

WTF? Is dating always this manipulative mind fuck?

Why, because women don't put manipulative mind fucks when they date?

[Drakken]

Taking dating advice from Drakken. This will end well.

If he brings up the 'seduction community', I'm going to punch him in the nuts.

He already did, reading that advice is like reading 'the game'

Crap. I owe Drak a punch to the nuts.

"Catch me when you can, Mishter Lusk!" 

If we ever meet, I'll bring in a bag of nuts and an album of "The Nutcracker". 

[Drakken]

That's real?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community

Have fun having a read, Korea. 

http://www.fastseduction.com/

[Valmy]

Why, because women don't put manipulative mind fucks when they date?

I can honestly say I never felt that manipulated while dating, actually in relationships is another matter.  Mostly the fucked up parts happened because the ladies are generally terrible at saying things directly and I am horrible at taking subtle hints.

[Drakken]

Why, because women don't put manipulative mind fucks when they date?

I can honestly say I never felt that manipulated while dating, actually in relationships is another matter.  Mostly the fucked up parts happened because the ladies are generally terrible at saying things directly and I am horrible at taking subtle hints.

Absolutely that dating involves manipulation. EVERY social interaction involves some level of manipulation and deceit. Everyone lies (mostly small innocent lies), everyone taints the truth for their benefit (mostly just little tweaks), and everyone attempts to boost themselves as having higher value.

Ever got to a party with the best clothes you had, teeth brushed, and combed because you expected girls to be there? That's manipulation, man. Went to a job interview in a suit and tie you wear only this one time, and tweaked the content of your resume to convince your future boss you had a higher level of ability and competence than the competition? Manipulation. It's part of the social world. And it's allright that way.

The difference lies in intent and the means used to do it. There is a huge difference between using one's leverage to seek to attract someone and make him or her do things he or she would consent to do in the right setting or mood, and which involves no harm (like, say, seducing a woman with some legit tricks to highten her mood and have consensual sex with you) and forcing someone to do something against his or her will or cross his or her heart (like getting her drunk and passed out, or threaten to fire her if she doesn't give you extra).

I think quite a few people confuse manipulation with coercion, which involve forcing someone to do things by violence, threats, trickery, and mind control. Well, as far as I know, no woman I have ever picked up, even when using what some people here consider as deceitful and base strategies, has denounced me as having forced them to be picked up and have intercourse, even when things got awry in the relationship later on for various reasons. I approached them, did my things, they got attracted, and we hooked up freely as consenting adults. Isn't it what seduction is all about?

[Valmy]

Ever got to a party with the best clothes you had, teeth brushed, and combed because you expected girls to be there? That's manipulation, man. Went to a job interview in a suit and tie you wear only this one time, and tweaked the content of your resume to convince your future boss you had a higher level of ability and competence? Manipulation. It's part of the social world. And it's allright that way.

Yeah but that sort of manipulation is normal and expected and in fact I would be upset if I was NOT manipulated that way.  Heck half the fun of dating is seeing the women dressed up all nice for you.  No matter how much they love you later on they will probably never again work so hard just to look nice with just you around.  Likewise so are little white lies to avoid confrontation and trying to put your best foot forward and so forth.  That is just being manipulated to look better than you actually are but everybody expects and demands you manipulate them in this way.

Things that are not expected, like you making up a woman to get your date's competitive juices up, are a bit different since they generally require a plan and are designed to steer the interaction a certain way using tactics that are outside the general social pattern.  If a woman used tactics like these I would be annoyed and feel a bit like tool since I would not normally expect to be manipulated in that sort of fashion.

[Habbaku]

That's real?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community

Have fun having a read, Korea. 

http://www.fastseduction.com/

I'm actually in a game of Here I Stand with Nick Savoy at the moment.

[Caliga]

Don't be seduced plz. 

[Habbaku]

I will try to avoid his wily charms.

Besides, I've met him in person.  His wife is hott.  Caliga-approved, too.

[Barrister]

Absolutely that dating involves manipulation. EVERY social interaction involves some level of manipulation and deceit. Everyone lies (mostly small innocent lies), everyone taints the truth for their benefit (mostly just little tweaks), and everyone attempts to boost themselves as having higher value.

What a depressing way to look at the world.

I'm glad I don't see the world, or social interaction, that way.   

[Drakken]

Things that are not expected, like you making up a woman to get your date's competitive juices up, are a bit different since they generally require a plan and are designed to steer the interaction a certain way using tactics that are outside the general social pattern.  If a woman used tactics like these I would be annoyed and feel a bit like tool since I would not normally expect to be manipulated in that sort of fashion.

First, only a fool would admit to a date that she made a woman up to get her. I'd just say that I stopped seeing her.

Second, girls use tactics, and plentiful of them, to weed out the guys that are not that interesting or have undesirable traits. These are called tests.

Third, a woman who is not interested would not take the bait, she'd say something neutral and impersonal like "okey, have fun!". If she changes her gears it was because she can be nexted and lose a potential mate, which happens all the time due to indecision and bad communication. She already had interest anyway, just that she was pushed to a decision, so it is fair game. Just like salespeople who argue they have a customer ready to buy it, that he comes back in an hour, so you need to take the decision now.

[Drakken]

Absolutely that dating involves manipulation. EVERY social interaction involves some level of manipulation and deceit. Everyone lies (mostly small innocent lies), everyone taints the truth for their benefit (mostly just little tweaks), and everyone attempts to boost themselves as having higher value.

What a depressing way to look at the world.

I'm glad I don't see the world, or social interaction, that way.   

It is not depressing to see the world as it is, and refuse to sugarcoat it with illusions of candeur or carebear-land just to hide what our cognitive dissonance refuses to accept.

As lawyer and prosecutor, you should know how easy and tempting it is to use deceit (and I use this word in its larger sense) to simplify interactions or gain an advantage. Even a law-abiding witness can be tempted to use it to save the butt of someone he or she cares about, even if it means only to twist facts a little bit or give them another spin without going all the way to perjury.

Convincing juries is rarely based on facts alone, except when a smoking gun is presented or an ironclad witness is present, but on how both counsels spin this circumstancial information and present their synthesis of what has happened (or could have happened) as a workable, probable scenario.

It doesn't mean it is always done with bad or illicit intentions. In fact, most of the time it is done with good, innocent, or noble ones, justly because it is an intricate part of interaction between people.

[Ed Anger]

That's real?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community

Have fun having a read, Korea. 

http://www.fastseduction.com/

I'm actually in a game of Here I Stand with Nick Savoy at the moment.

Punch.Him.In.The.Nuts.

[Jacob]

Oh Drakkan, you're buying into that whole "the seduction community" crap with all its techniques and bullshit pseudo philosophy?  I guess it's an amusing way to play around for a few years, but if you take it seriously and try to defend it as a legitimate world view you're getting on deep water.