Madonna booed in Bucharest for defending gypsies

[Martinus]

No what he refers to is my hungarian politics thread where I told that a bunch of serial killers (who just got caught btw) kept shooting gypsies in the back during the night after setting their houses on fire. In response to that, gypsies at some villages formed armed "patrols" and it took them less than a day to create a couple of serious incidents because they basically wanted to lynch anyone they did not like (for example: a family with kids in a SUV)

In Hungary, the whole situation is near a breaking point. Because while those armed gypo patrols start to roam, the nazi party Marty mentions is about to "re-form" the local police units which existed during the mid-wars era (called "csendőrség"), at least in name, to "protect order" It is only a matter of time before two of these groups meet, and the remainder of the government's authority withers away.

Yes, the nazis are doing a lot to escalate this, but this is not only the issue of nazis going berserk on colored people, but rather the end result of having an ever-growing cultural-societal problem for 5 decades and keep ignoring it and letting the individuals (both whites and gypsies) trying to deal with it on their own. I imagine it is the same in other east euro countries as well.

I love how you equate ethnic violence against the Roma with an excessive, but still defensive, response from them, in a perceived (and from your post, apparently justified) belief that the state authority is unable to protect them from these attacks.

So first individual neonazis murder whole families of Romas to provoke them into some sort of action, and when they do, form paramilitary neonazi groups to ward against the "gypo threat" (btw, kudos for using a racist slur so consistently - at least it doesn't leave any doubts as to what you really think about the whole situation).

And no, Poland has virtually no problem with gypsies (at least not any more than with any other poverty-stricken group), and we have one of the largest populations of the Roma in Eastern Europe.

[Martinus]

Anyway, Romania and Bulgaria are two nasty countries that shouldn't have been let into the EU until they get their shit together. As much as Poland, Czech Republic or Hungary are backward and undeveloped, they are positively first world countries compared to these two.

Although, as far as I am concerned (and if I wasn't Polish), I'd be against the entry of Poland, Hungary and the Baltics too.

[Jaron]

What about the Germans?

[Martinus]

What about the Germans?

Germany is one of the founding members of the EU.

[Tamas]

No what he refers to is my hungarian politics thread where I told that a bunch of serial killers (who just got caught btw) kept shooting gypsies in the back during the night after setting their houses on fire. In response to that, gypsies at some villages formed armed "patrols" and it took them less than a day to create a couple of serious incidents because they basically wanted to lynch anyone they did not like (for example: a family with kids in a SUV)

In Hungary, the whole situation is near a breaking point. Because while those armed gypo patrols start to roam, the nazi party Marty mentions is about to "re-form" the local police units which existed during the mid-wars era (called "csendőrség"), at least in name, to "protect order" It is only a matter of time before two of these groups meet, and the remainder of the government's authority withers away.

Yes, the nazis are doing a lot to escalate this, but this is not only the issue of nazis going berserk on colored people, but rather the end result of having an ever-growing cultural-societal problem for 5 decades and keep ignoring it and letting the individuals (both whites and gypsies) trying to deal with it on their own. I imagine it is the same in other east euro countries as well.

I love how you equate ethnic violence against the Roma with an excessive, but still defensive, response from them, in a perceived (and from your post, apparently justified) belief that the state authority is unable to protect them from these attacks.

So first individual neonazis murder whole families of Romas to provoke them into some sort of action, and when they do, form paramilitary neonazi groups to ward against the "gypo threat" (btw, kudos for using a racist slur so consistently - at least it doesn't leave any doubts as to what you really think about the whole situation).

And no, Poland has virtually no problem with gypsies (at least not any more than with any other poverty-stricken group), and we have one of the largest populations of the Roma in Eastern Europe.

My take is that first I would ask a Polack who is not living in seclusion in the richest and most urban parts of the country, before deciding you have no Roma problem.

And your attitude is precisely what led to the current situation, when there is no way out. Yes, how we should not expect the gypsies to rally when they feel threatened. But how could we ask the whites to not feel threatened when people get beaten to death if they slightly injure a gypsy kid who ran in front of their car? Or do not understand that simple folk feel more secure by nazi groups marching through their streets, after years of being harassed by gypsy burglars who ransack their fields and regularly steal their tools and valuables, and if they do fight back it is them who are getting in front of a judge?

The hungarian intelligentsia's answer has been exactly like yours: "omg if you say a negative thing about the Roma you are a racist pig worthy of dying a violent death" No wonder the plebs abandoned them and went for the nazis. A decision which will once again ruin our country, but it was inaction by the sane which paved the way for the insane.

[Tamas]

I think one of Obama's speeches about religion fits here very nicely: by the liberal center and the left's refusal to discuss the issue (for him, religion, in case cultural clash between nomadic gypsies and settled people), the only ones talking about it and offering "solutions" are the crazy and the lunatic.

[Sheilbh]

I'm as liberal as they come (and surprised Marti hasn't latched onto the homophobia thing - have you ever read 'Greg's Homophobia Newsletter' Marti, it's a short story by David Sedaris I think you'd enjoy) but everyone I know who has had personal experience of journalism really dislikes them.  So I think there may be some genuine problems at the heart of it.  Though I don't know what they are and it's not an excuse for violence.

[Martinus]

I'm as liberal as they come (and surprised Marti hasn't latched onto the homophobia thing - have you ever read 'Greg's Homophobia Newsletter' Marti, it's a short story by David Sedaris I think you'd enjoy) but everyone I know who has had personal experience of journalism really dislikes them.  So I think there may be some genuine problems at the heart of it.  Though I don't know what they are and it's not an excuse for violence.

I don't know. Most journalists are scum, but Brazen for example was tolerable.

[Martinus]

Anyway, I treat anti-gypsy violence and prejudice in the same way I treat Russian attempts to reconquer Ukraine or Georgia. In terms of personal likes and dislikes, I couldn't give the rat's arse over their fate. But both are usually a prelude to nastier things hitting much closer home, as far as I am concerned.

In short, I don't want to be the one having to say at some point in future "When they came for the gypsies, I didn't say anything because I wasn't a gypsy."

[Martinus]

No what he refers to is my hungarian politics thread where I told that a bunch of serial killers (who just got caught btw) kept shooting gypsies in the back during the night after setting their houses on fire. In response to that, gypsies at some villages formed armed "patrols" and it took them less than a day to create a couple of serious incidents because they basically wanted to lynch anyone they did not like (for example: a family with kids in a SUV)

In Hungary, the whole situation is near a breaking point. Because while those armed gypo patrols start to roam, the nazi party Marty mentions is about to "re-form" the local police units which existed during the mid-wars era (called "csendőrség"), at least in name, to "protect order" It is only a matter of time before two of these groups meet, and the remainder of the government's authority withers away.

Yes, the nazis are doing a lot to escalate this, but this is not only the issue of nazis going berserk on colored people, but rather the end result of having an ever-growing cultural-societal problem for 5 decades and keep ignoring it and letting the individuals (both whites and gypsies) trying to deal with it on their own. I imagine it is the same in other east euro countries as well.

I love how you equate ethnic violence against the Roma with an excessive, but still defensive, response from them, in a perceived (and from your post, apparently justified) belief that the state authority is unable to protect them from these attacks.

So first individual neonazis murder whole families of Romas to provoke them into some sort of action, and when they do, form paramilitary neonazi groups to ward against the "gypo threat" (btw, kudos for using a racist slur so consistently - at least it doesn't leave any doubts as to what you really think about the whole situation).

And no, Poland has virtually no problem with gypsies (at least not any more than with any other poverty-stricken group), and we have one of the largest populations of the Roma in Eastern Europe.

My take is that first I would ask a Polack who is not living in seclusion in the richest and most urban parts of the country, before deciding you have no Roma problem.

And your attitude is precisely what led to the current situation, when there is no way out. Yes, how we should not expect the gypsies to rally when they feel threatened. But how could we ask the whites to not feel threatened when people get beaten to death if they slightly injure a gypsy kid who ran in front of their car? Or do not understand that simple folk feel more secure by nazi groups marching through their streets, after years of being harassed by gypsy burglars who ransack their fields and regularly steal their tools and valuables, and if they do fight back it is them who are getting in front of a judge?

The hungarian intelligentsia's answer has been exactly like yours: "omg if you say a negative thing about the Roma you are a racist pig worthy of dying a violent death" No wonder the plebs abandoned them and went for the nazis. A decision which will once again ruin our country, but it was inaction by the sane which paved the way for the insane.

So are you saying that "serial killers" murdering gypsy families and setting their homes on fire was an understandable reaction to harassment by gypsies?

[Martinus]

I think one of Obama's speeches about religion fits here very nicely: by the liberal center and the left's refusal to discuss the issue (for him, religion, in case cultural clash between nomadic gypsies and settled people), the only ones talking about it and offering "solutions" are the crazy and the lunatic.

Well, solutions are being offered and these include incentives at education and "mainstream-ization" (like the dual language schools in Poland) without using means of oppression and insisting on full assimilation. They seem to be working, too.

It's funny how exactly the same methods of assimilation you are advocation for the gypsies would probably piss you off if they were applied by, say, Romanians, to the Hungarian minority in their country.

[Tamas]

*sigh*

[Josquius]

I think youtube must have been reading this thread because this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJfS1v-fU0&feature=rec-r2 was in my recommended list. 

Is that a joke or serious?

[Eddie Teach]

I think youtube must have been reading this thread because this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJfS1v-fU0&feature=rec-r2 was in my recommended list. 

Is that a joke or serious?

Hell if I know.

[Iormlund]

Forbidding kids from being educated is one of the most bizarre and crazy cultural traits I've ever heard of.  For this reason I'm not even sure if it is true.  I mean, a lot of Chinese parents will consider the education needs of their children the absolute number one priority, even more important than putting a roof above their head.  Even the worst parents who don't give a shit will just leave the system to handle their kids, and will not actively seek to take their kids away from schools. 

It's actually pretty well documented. I would guess at paranoid xenophobia myself, and I can't imagine that World War II helped matters either; gypsies were probably close enough to the epicenter to see propaganda in action, especially as it pertained to their being one of the groups that was being slaughtered when caught.

In Poland, the government has opened a number of schools with Romani language being used in classes and Romani being taught alongside Polish, and gypsy kids are apparently flocking to them.

As for the rest of Europe, well: children of poverty-ridden ethnic minority that has no good grasp of majority language shun schools run exclusively in that language? Gee, color me surprised.

The fact is, as far as Eastern Europe goes, I'd much rather take the gypsies over the resurgent nazis, thank you very much. You guys really have no idea about the extents of European racism and racial hatred, especially in the former Soviety Bloc. I am often called racist on this forum, but my views are pretty much extreme of extreme liberalism when it comes to the local politics.

The only problem with your theory is that it in Spain Gypsies do not speak Romani and yet still fail to get educated.