Will any Liberals be satisfied with the Democrats in 2010?

Started by Faeelin, August 16, 2009, 01:50:42 PM

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derspiess

#45
August 16, 2009, 09:13:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 16, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
As I forgot to say it, how exciting that the public option is going away. :w00t: :swiss:
Why?

Cuz it would have been a disaster.  Not that it won't be a disaster without it, mind you.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Valmy

#46
August 16, 2009, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 16, 2009, 09:13:35 PM
Cuz it would have been a disaster.  Not that it won't be a disaster without it, mind you.

I figure since we are already paying more per capita than the socialized bastards in Euroland we might as well get what we pay for.

But yeah the health system is simply messed up and I have no illusions whatever the eventual reform the Dems do it will be any better.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

#47
August 16, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
Quote from: derspiess on August 16, 2009, 09:13:35 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 16, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
As I forgot to say it, how exciting that the public option is going away. :w00t: :swiss:
Why?

Cuz it would have been a disaster.  Not that it won't be a disaster without it, mind you.

What with the death panels and all.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

derspiess

#48
August 16, 2009, 10:05:42 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2009, 09:42:39 PM
I figure since we are already paying more per capita than the socialized bastards in Euroland we might as well get what we pay for.

Except we may well end up getting even less for what we pay.  You don't still claim to be a Lockean liberal, do you?
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

derspiess

#49
August 16, 2009, 10:06:35 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on August 16, 2009, 09:50:59 PM
What with the death panels and all.

Ah, why don't you go & get yourself some end of life counseling.


:P
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Valmy

#50
August 16, 2009, 10:16:47 PM Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 10:20:43 PM by Valmy
Quote from: derspiess on August 16, 2009, 10:05:42 PM
Except we may well end up getting even less for what we pay.  You don't still claim to be a Lockean liberal, do you?

Yep I am just considering the possibility this might not fuck it up any worse than it already is.

The model I wish would be adopted would be where most of the health care decisions would be worked out between doctors and patients.  But now HMOs and Lawyers pretty much run everything and the system is about as innefficient and corrupt as all hell.  I don't really know if having the Feds run it will make it any worse...and through Medicare and such they already have a ton of power.

Might as well since it is so far gone.

I am not enthusiastic about this Spicey I just don't really think our present system is worth defending and nobody seems to have any other ideas.  Heck even the Republicans massively expanding federal health benefits.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Admiral Yi

#51
August 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2009, 10:16:47 PM
The model I wish would be adopted would be where most of the health care decisions would be worked out between doctors and patients.  But now HMOs and Lawyers pretty much run everything and the system is about as innefficient and corrupt as all hell.  I don't really know if having the Feds run it will make it any worse...and through Medicare and such they already have a ton of power.
After reading ulmont's article I don't see how letting doctors run things would be all that fabulous.

Valmy

#52
August 16, 2009, 10:31:27 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
After reading ulmont's article I don't see how letting doctors run things would be all that fabulous.

If the people providing the service and the consumers of said service should not make the decisions then who?  I guess that is the question we are ultimately wrestling with here.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Admiral Yi

#53
August 16, 2009, 10:43:43 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2009, 10:31:27 PM
If the people providing the service and the consumers of said service should not make the decisions then who?  I guess that is the question we are ultimately wrestling with here.
The question we are wrestling with is how to allocate supply in a condition of infinite demand.

CountDeMoney

#54
August 16, 2009, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2009, 10:16:47 PM
The model I wish would be adopted would be where most of the health care decisions would be worked out between doctors and patients.  But now HMOs and Lawyers pretty much run everything and the system is about as innefficient and corrupt as all hell.  I don't really know if having the Feds run it will make it any worse...and through Medicare and such they already have a ton of power.
After reading ulmont's article I don't see how letting doctors run things would be all that fabulous.

Doctors, for all their education, are mostly morons.  To paraphrase George Carlin: a few good ones, a whole lot of useless ones.

Oh, and they're greedy as all hell.  It would be like putting investment banks in charge of the stock market.  Oh, wait.

Fate

#55
August 17, 2009, 12:30:43 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on August 16, 2009, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 10:30:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on August 16, 2009, 10:16:47 PM
The model I wish would be adopted would be where most of the health care decisions would be worked out between doctors and patients.  But now HMOs and Lawyers pretty much run everything and the system is about as innefficient and corrupt as all hell.  I don't really know if having the Feds run it will make it any worse...and through Medicare and such they already have a ton of power.
After reading ulmont's article I don't see how letting doctors run things would be all that fabulous.



Oh, and they're greedy as all hell.  It would be like putting investment banks in charge of the stock market.  Oh, wait.

Indeed. I shall become one of those greedy, tax obsessed, country club Republicans in short order.  :mmm:

saskganesh

#56
August 17, 2009, 07:05:31 AM
In Canada we have regional health boards who run things, under the administration of the provinces, who have a mandate to implement national standards using federal monies. providers are a mix of private and nonprofit, they bill the government but there are private insurers involved as well. every province runs things differently. in some places you have a pay an additional annual fee.
humans were created in their own image

KRonn

#57
August 17, 2009, 08:10:32 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on August 16, 2009, 01:50:42 PM
So, the Democrats in the Senate have now said they won't pass Waxman. The Public Option is dead, dead, dead. Bagram is still in effect, the economy will be sucky for years to come, and Obama is at best indifferent to gay rights.

What part of the Democratic base will still support them in the next few years?
My impression is that Pres Obama has shifted too far politically left. He was elected by a lot of more centrist voters, the extremes being a minority on either political side. If he can start working more towards the center he stands a better chance. That will alienate the more further left, but I don't think it's a good idea to cater to the more extreme anyway.

I think he lost the early debate on health care, but now is probably making up for it with more speeches and talks on it. But some damage has been done and he's playing catch up, so he's hurt himself politically on just health care. Let alone other budget and bailout stuff that people might be upset over. He had pushed to have health care passed quickly, and I really think that angered a lot of people to go so fast, with yet another unread and non-understood massive spending bill.

Caliga

#58
August 17, 2009, 08:39:19 AM
Quote from: KRonn on August 17, 2009, 08:10:32 AM
My impression is that Pres Obama has shifted too far politically left. He was elected by a lot of more centrist voters, the extremes being a minority on either political side. If he can start working more towards the center he stands a better chance. That will alienate the more further left, but I don't think it's a good idea to cater to the more extreme anyway.
The same exact thing happened with Bush, except he shifted in the other direction. :)
0 Ed Anger Disapproval Points

The Minsky Moment

#59
August 17, 2009, 08:43:26 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on August 16, 2009, 07:34:04 PM
Quote from: garbon on August 16, 2009, 06:44:57 PM
As I forgot to say it, how exciting that the public option is going away. :w00t: :swiss:
Why?

Doesn't his mom work in Pharma?  wants to keep those drug prices up.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson
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