Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

The UK is no longer a world power anymore anyway.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

What was realistically expected of Starmer to do in terms of the Jewish vs Arab shooting that cannot be realistically expected to be done by him regarding the Arab vs Arab shooting?

For starters, pressure the Israeli government to be more careful about what they're shooting at.  It's unlikely to succeed, but at least it's plausible.  As I said, there are some unrealistic and unreasonable demands worked in there (like cutting off Israel entirely, a la South Africa).  I suppose people could go protest Qatar (or, more likely, Western support for Qatar) to try to pressure them to stop supporting Hamas, and it's somewhat fair to call out a lack of that.

[Tamas]

What was realistically expected of Starmer to do in terms of the Jewish vs Arab shooting that cannot be realistically expected to be done by him regarding the Arab vs Arab shooting?

For starters, pressure the Israeli government to be more careful about what they're shooting at.  It's unlikely to succeed, but at least it's plausible.  As I said, there are some unrealistic and unreasonable demands worked in there (like cutting off Israel entirely, a la South Africa).  I suppose people could go protest Qatar (or, more likely, Western support for Qatar) to try to pressure them to stop supporting Hamas, and it's somewhat fair to call out a lack of that.

That's fine, however the protesters were demanding a ceasefire to be arranged, so in that regard, whatever they thought Starmer can do to make both sides to agree to, it must apply to the Palestinian in-fighting as well since one of the combatants in both case is Hamas.

But again I don't want to be overly Raz about this. I realise it is a different scale. It's just that I feel it is fair to acknowledge that a bunch of Arabs killing each other makes for far less interesting rage-material than Jews killing Arabs. Whether that's because of anti-semitism, or because people are racist and don't assume agency from Arabs, I guess it's a caleidoscope of reasons.

[Razgovory]

They can pressure their governments to ban Hamas, or to encourage the government to work towards destroying the organization.

Hamas has been a designated state sponsor or terrorism, and thus blacklisted in the West, for decades.  Why would people protest to do something that their governments did a long time ago?  Also, short of boots on the ground in Gaza what do you want Western governments to do that they aren't already doing?

Yeah, like Canada didn't have nukes, didn't allow nukes on it's soil and had no intention of doing so anytime in the future but still people protested.  People in Ireland protested for Palestine despite it's government having no influence on anything.  Or people demanding a city adopt a ceasefire resolution.  

Such protests have no plausible possible positive outcome.  So an inability to affect anything is no excuse.  They could also protest Western arm sales to Saudi Arabia and accuse that state of genocide in Yemen.  But no, they do not.  That genocide is not as important.

The problem is not that people were dying.  It was the existence of the state fighting those people.

[Valmy]

But again I don't want to be overly Raz about this. I realise it is a different scale. It's just that I feel it is fair to acknowledge that a bunch of Arabs killing each other makes for far less interesting rage-material than Jews killing Arabs. Whether that's because of anti-semitism, or because people are racist and don't assume agency from Arabs, I guess it's a caleidoscope of reasons.

Here is the deal. It annoys me when I am made to be an accomplice to the Arab killing. If Israel needs to kill Palestinian civilians for some reason...well they need to...but I don't want to be involved. Israel is a regional power in a region where everybody is a basket case. They seem like they can take care of themselves. Why am I giving them money?

And frankly I felt exactly the same way about the Saudis bombing Yemen or whatever. I don't want to be allied to a country that does that shit. I don't care what their religion is.

Granted I would rather my fucking country wouldn't do that kind of shit either.

[Jacob]

Another angle to why the Jewish-Arab conflict is more compelling than any of the various Arab-Arab ones is that it has connections - real and symbolic - to a whole bunch of issues and conflicts that resonate for people in their own lives and politics.

For example, there's a non-trivial contingent of Chinese people who have very strong pro-Israel sentiment. They are, of course, as able to absorb information and draw their own objective conclusions as anybody else. Nonetheless, there's a pretty solid correlation between their opinion on Israel and their opinion of the CCP. Basically, being strongly pro-Israel is a safe(r) way to level harsh but oblique criticism at the Chinese regime.

Similarly, I've come across a bunch of sentiment from Africans that explicitly maps their interpretation of the Israel-Palestine conflict to their own local political projects - whether rooted in anti-colonial sentiment (which feeds into local arguments about how to redistribute political power and resources), connected to local ethnic or political conflicts, or relating to their opinion of Arab influence in their local area.

Similarly the approach of many European maps to their feelings about immigration - specifically Muslim immigration - locally, and how it is seen to affect their communities.

At this point it's a cause-celebre and political stand-in for a large number of local political conflicts. This drives more people to care, which increases the local relevance and the power of the conflict as a political metaphor even more in a self-perpetuating cycle.

IMO, of course.

[Josquius]

The main difference I'd see is one of scale.
If Hamas started spreading indiscriminate death and destruction on the scale of the IDF then I'd be all for foreign intervention.
When within a few days of the IDF stopping their campaign there's been a few shootings.... Well it's just not equivalent is it.
The religion of the killers is irrelevant.

[crazy canuck]

To be fair, I don't expect massive London protests with the signs of "stop tribal infighting in Gaza!"

And for good reason, Hamas is a terrorist organization.  What would be the point?

What was the point of demanding that Starmer arranges a cease-fire?

I appreciate the difference in scale of bombing people's home from the air and shooting them into ditches but apart from that the only difference is who is doing the killing.

The point seems obvious to me. The government of the UK has at least some influence/leverage with the government of Israel, if for no other reason that the government of the UK is part of the international community.  I am not sure what you are really asking me here?

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, like Canada didn't have nukes, didn't allow nukes on it's soil and had no intention of doing so anytime in the future but still people protested. 

After Reagan was elected, there was a very friendly counterpart in Canada under the Progressive Conservatives. If there was a time when Canada might change its policy on nukes, that would have been the time. It is not a coincidence that was the height of the anti-nuclear protests in Canada.

[The Minsky Moment]

If the point is to show Western hypocrisy, then the near total lack of interest in the massive blood-letting in nearby Sudan, which has resulted in more death and human misery than Gaza will do more effectively for that purpose; indeed I think Van Jones rather unartfully invoked that example recently.

OK great, point made, hypocrisy shown.

Still doesn't change the reality of what happened in Gaza.

[OttoVonBismarck]

To be clear Europe has no influence here. The UK played virtually no meaningful role in a single thing that happened during this conflict and Macron's efforts to do things himself failed and amounted to humiliating nothingness. Trump, for all his stupidity and ineptitude, had more influence in a couple meetings than Macron--or frankly all of Europe combined, had in two years.

All that Europe succeeded in doing is showing their whole ass and revealing to the world how much Europeans always have, and always will, hate Jews and love Muslims (as long as they're killing Jews.)

[Admiral Yi]

I suppose people could go protest Qatar (or, more likely, Western support for Qatar) to try to pressure them to stop supporting Hamas, and it's somewhat fair to call out a lack of that.

If we're going to protest Qatar for sending money that Hamas takes a cut of, we also need to protest Norway, Jordan, the UN, et al for building hospitals and supplying food that Hamas takes a cut of.

The closest precedent of a solution that I can think of is the UN police mission to Haiti.  I.e. boots on the ground.  Disarm Hamas.  Prevent killing.

[Razgovory]

If the point is to show Western hypocrisy, then the near total lack of interest in the massive blood-letting in nearby Sudan, which has resulted in more death and human misery than Gaza will do more effectively for that purpose; indeed I think Van Jones rather unartfully invoked that example recently.

OK great, point made, hypocrisy shown.

Still doesn't change the reality of what happened in Gaza.

I think Yemen or Syria are better examples because Westerners have a greater part in that.  But anyway, Hypocrisy shown.  Next up, why are they being hypocritical?

[Razgovory]

The main difference I'd see is one of scale.
If Hamas started spreading indiscriminate death and destruction on the scale of the IDF then I'd be all for foreign intervention.
When within a few days of the IDF stopping their campaign there's been a few shootings.... Well it's just not equivalent is it.
The religion of the killers is irrelevant.

Give me a ball park figure on how many Palestinian have to die at Hamas hands before it becomes concerning.  If you want something well past the scale of the IDF you can look at Saudi Arabia in Yemen.  And now all the protesters for Gaza have nothing to do, I'm sure they'll move on to the atrocities in Yemen.  Your country and even CC's country can influence that.  So certainly everyone will march to stop those kids from being killed.  That is if they feel those kids are important.