Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Barrister]

Left wing distate for Israel is nothing to do with race and more policy.

So obviously I can't comment on the motivations of every leftist, nor put numbers on how many feel this way - but come on.

It's not very hard at all to find anti-semitism in a hard-left mindspace.  As a leftist you're very suspicious of big corporations.  And who controls the big corporations?  Why the Jews of course!

[HVC]

It's simple reasoning. Liberals good, conservatives bad. Antisemitism is bad, thus obviously no liberal can be antisemitic.

[Josquius]

Left wing distate for Israel is nothing to do with race and more policy.

So obviously I can't comment on the motivations of every leftist, nor put numbers on how many feel this way - but come on.

It's not very hard at all to find anti-semitism in a hard-left mindspace.  As a leftist you're very suspicious of big corporations.  And who controls the big corporations?  Why the Jews of course!

Obviously, there's all kinds of people in the world. There'll be people who are a hardcore socialists but really really super racist.
But the general dislike for Israel comes from the policies towards Palestine rather than any sort of hate for white people. Thats a weird belief that festers on the far right.

The rest though, no. Left wing distate for Israel is nothing to do with race and more policy.

The fact that you continue to deny this is basically bordering on you being antisemitic as well. Someone who continually shoves their fingers in their ears and chants "this isn't happening" while his fellow travelers (some of whom, like Jeremy Corbyn, have been steeped in antisemitism since the 1960s) chant antisemitic slogans, is essentially normalizing and condoning said antisemitism.

And no, I am not saying everyone on the left. But if even 1 in 10 people I affiliated with was antisemitic, I would insist they be denounced, denounce them myself, and insist they be kicked out of any organizations I shared with them. If those organizations refused, I would leave them. I wouldn't affiliate with people who affiliated with people like that.

I never denied anti-semitism is happening. Stop making shit up.
The topic was its origin.
On the left its far more commonly a case of distaste for Israeli policy first which can then become warped and develop into anti-semitism rather than hating Jews first thus its natural that hating Israel would be an outgrowth of that.

[viper37]

Left wing distate for Israel is nothing to do with race and more policy.

So obviously I can't comment on the motivations of every leftist, nor put numbers on how many feel this way - but come on.

It's not very hard at all to find anti-semitism in a hard-left mindspace.  As a leftist you're very suspicious of big corporations.  And who controls the big corporations?  Why the Jews of course!

Obviously, there's all kinds of people in the world. There'll be people who are a hardcore socialists but really really super racist.
But the general dislike for Israel comes from the policies towards Palestine rather than any sort of hate for white people. Thats a weird belief that festers on the far right.

The rest though, no. Left wing distate for Israel is nothing to do with race and more policy.

The fact that you continue to deny this is basically bordering on you being antisemitic as well. Someone who continually shoves their fingers in their ears and chants "this isn't happening" while his fellow travelers (some of whom, like Jeremy Corbyn, have been steeped in antisemitism since the 1960s) chant antisemitic slogans, is essentially normalizing and condoning said antisemitism.

And no, I am not saying everyone on the left. But if even 1 in 10 people I affiliated with was antisemitic, I would insist they be denounced, denounce them myself, and insist they be kicked out of any organizations I shared with them. If those organizations refused, I would leave them. I wouldn't affiliate with people who affiliated with people like that.

I never denied anti-semitism is happening. Stop making shit up.
The topic was its origin.
On the left its far more commonly a case of distaste for Israeli policy first which can then become warped and develop into anti-semitism rather than hating Jews first thus its natural that hating Israel would be an outgrowth of that.

There's a lot of hatred for capitalism of western societies too.

[Jacob]

It's simple reasoning. Liberals good, conservatives bad. Antisemitism is bad, thus obviously no liberal can be antisemitic.

You have a curious use of the term "liberal".

[Jacob]

So obviously I can't comment on the motivations of every leftist, nor put numbers on how many feel this way - but come on.

It's not very hard at all to find anti-semitism in a hard-left mindspace.  As a leftist you're very suspicious of big corporations.  And who controls the big corporations?  Why the Jews of course!

I don't think the antisemitism on the hard left is through the "Jews control the big corporations" line of reasoning. I think the reasoning is an inability to distinguish between Jews and Israel, and holding that Israel is axiomatically evil; therefore antisemitism.

[Barrister]

This is just sort of an aside.  My 10 year old was kind of interested in conspiracy theories.  He asked me once "what do you think the biggest conspiracy theory in the world is".

I think he expected me to say flat earth, or moon landings were fake, or something "fun".

Instead I had to answer "that Jews secretly control the world".

Now to our kids credit (or how he's been raised) I don't think he's ever heard of such a thing.  But sadly though I don't think he's ever met a jewish person, which is maybe just an Edmonton thing.  Jewish population in Winnipeg growing up was pretty significant.

[Valmy]

So obviously I can't comment on the motivations of every leftist, nor put numbers on how many feel this way - but come on.

It's not very hard at all to find anti-semitism in a hard-left mindspace.  As a leftist you're very suspicious of big corporations.  And who controls the big corporations?  Why the Jews of course!

I don't think the antisemitism on the hard left is through the "Jews control the big corporations" line of reasoning. I think the reasoning is an inability to distinguish between Jews and Israel, and holding that Israel is axiomatically evil; therefore antisemitism.

Yes. This.

But also there is a lot of overlap between the paranoid and anti-authoritarian left and right with people often moving between the two. So lots of conspiracy theories and nuttiness gets passed around on the fringes and that slowly spreads around both on the left and the right as trust of institutions wanes.

I mean prior to a decade ago I considered anti-vaccine conspiracy nuttery to be entirely a left wing phenomenon. And then very mysteriously it suddenly appeared and spread through the right wing.

[Barrister]

Huh.  Campus protests have come to Alberta.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/university-calgary-palestinian-protest-police-removal-1.7199937

At U of Calgary police were called yesterday, protestors were told they could not set up an encampment, but were free to protest and could return the following day.  Most protestors left voluntarily, but a few dozen had to be forcibly cleared.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/student-protesters-at-university-of-alberta-start-pro-palestinian-encampment-1.7199928

Encampment set up at U of A today.  Supposedly protestors were served with "eviction notices".  I suppose we'll see overnight what happens.

[Razgovory]

You have several threads on Left Wing antisemitism.  For instance among Black Americans "Jews control everything" and "Jews ran the slave trade" have a lot of currency. There is also belief that Israelis train police to kill Black people.  Among the Left-wing protestors at these Universities middle eastern conspiracy  theories gain a lot of traction such as the idea that Israelis are stealing the organs of Palestinian children.  The idea that Zionists control the media makes a big impact in the left (Why isn't there more attention on Palestinian suffering?  It's the Zionists in the media.)  And of course the talk about the "Zionist lobby" having way to much influence on government.

[Grey Fox]

Huh.  Campus protests have come to Alberta.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/university-calgary-palestinian-protest-police-removal-1.7199937

At U of Calgary police were called yesterday, protestors were told they could not set up an encampment, but were free to protest and could return the following day.  Most protestors left voluntarily, but a few dozen had to be forcibly cleared.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/student-protesters-at-university-of-alberta-start-pro-palestinian-encampment-1.7199928

Encampment set up at U of A today.  Supposedly protestors were served with "eviction notices".  I suppose we'll see overnight what happens.

I find it interesting that in Montreal, only the Anglo University students are interested into setting up camps. Well, a camp.

[Valmy]

You have several threads on Left Wing antisemitism.  For instance among Black Americans "Jews control everything" and "Jews ran the slave trade" have a lot of currency. There is also belief that Israelis train police to kill Black people.  Among the Left-wing protestors at these Universities middle eastern conspiracy  theories gain a lot of traction such as the idea that Israelis are stealing the organs of Palestinian children.  The idea that Zionists control the media makes a big impact in the left (Why isn't there more attention on Palestinian suffering?  It's the Zionists in the media.)  And of course the talk about the "Zionist lobby" having way to much influence on government.

And don't forget Arab and Arab-Americans. The idea that the US supports Israel because American Jews control the government is pretty common.

But again we are talking about tens of thousands of dead civilians and an extreme right wing PM in Netanyahu with a history of corruption and authoritarian aspirations, who has held power off and on for almost 30 fucking years. If the Labour Party was in charge in Israel I suspect the leftists would be less antagonistic. But fat chance of that ever happening again, the Israeli left is dead. So is it any wonder a country where the extreme right battles the center right for power might not be popular with left wing people?

[Savonarola]

I'm more intrigued by the flip side, how conservatives embraced Jews/israel. From keeping them out of neighbourhoods and clubs to acceptance and support from the influence of a death cult.

As well as the evangelical nuttiness about prophecies and such it is worth considering Nazi policy for most of their existence wasn't just to kill the Jews but rather to send them elsewhere where they couldn't interfere with the Aryans. The famous Madagascar Plan one of the more well known surfacings of this.

The Madagascar plan was an extermination plan.  The survey done for the plan found that Madagascar could only support 10,000 people.  The rest would die.

The Madagascar Plan was never seriously pursued.  More to Josquius's point many of the German laws were written to keep Jews from leading a normal, public life making them invisible and powerless.  Before 1941, the German government encouraged Jewish emigration (after a heavy emigration tax and severe limits to the amount of money that could be taken from the country.)

That being said, this is completely different from the situation in the modern United States.  No serious politician on either the right or left is advocating Nuremberg style laws or encouraging Jews to go "Back to Israel."  Saying that is why conservatives have supported Israel or accepted Jews is clearly nonsense. 

[Valmy]

Before 1941, the German government encouraged Jewish emigration (after a heavy emigration tax and severe limits to the amount of money that could be taken from the country.)

That doesn't sound like a set of policies one would enact to encourage emigration 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

You have several threads on Left Wing antisemitism.  For instance among Black Americans "Jews control everything" and "Jews ran the slave trade" have a lot of currency. There is also belief that Israelis train police to kill Black people.  Among the Left-wing protestors at these Universities middle eastern conspiracy  theories gain a lot of traction such as the idea that Israelis are stealing the organs of Palestinian children.  The idea that Zionists control the media makes a big impact in the left (Why isn't there more attention on Palestinian suffering?  It's the Zionists in the media.)  And of course the talk about the "Zionist lobby" having way to much influence on government.

And of course the soviet virus that is still rife on the left, including what was said in the article you posted a bit back.