Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Valmy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ciV2nU04oo

Duke students walk out on commencement speaker Jerry Seinfeld.

Well that could have gone worse all things considered.

Are we drawing the success line at "the Jew didn't get lynched" now?

Well it was just a few people. A small number of hotheads.

[Valmy]

To be fair, the Soviet constitution guaranteed you freedom of speech, but it didn't guarantee you freedom from consequences of speech.

Well other people's freedom of speech might be to say nasty things about you because you said something they didn't like. Are we talking about consequences beyond that?

I guess I didn't think anybody's freedom of speech meant nobody else had freedom of speech to express opinions about something you said.

[grumbler]

The Hamas charter talks about Jews living peacefully in an Islamic Palestine, so the genocide talk is overblown.

The Soviet constitution talked about guarantees of full civil liberties and rights, so talk about Stalinist oppression is overblown.

The US constitution talked about guarantees of full civil liberties and rights, so talk about US Racial oppression is overblown.

[grumbler]

From the original Hamas Covenant

(snip)

Much of the antisemitic language of the Covenant was not included in a much later Declaration of Principles; however, to my knowledge the original Covenant has never been revoked or repudiated.  That requires judgment as to whether the later declaration represents a sincere change in belief, or was merely political rhetoric intended to secure more mainstream Arab financial support.  I never believed there was much doubt on that point, but if any doubt existed, October 7 firmly resolved it.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

Avalon Project

[Valmy]

Which would be a point in Islam's favor I guess if there were only three religions and people were free to move between them depending on their own conscience. But unfortunately that is not the case, at least not historically.

[Razgovory]

So did Grumbler convert or something?

[Tamas]

Apparently, the UN's OCHA (Humanitarian coordination something) has without explanation halved the number of estimated women and children casualties in Gaza in their latest report, while leaving the total number unchanged. They used to constitute two-thirds of the number, now they are a little more than half.

[Jacob]

I see it reported that it's been halved "without explanation", but I've also seen an explanation reported:

The first (and larger) quoted number has been the official numbers provided by various Palestinian authorities. Numbers which - apparently - do not distinguish between civilians and military casualties. Those numbers also, of course, have whatever question marks you'd like to put next to numbers provided by Gazan authorities. I'm pretty sure that when OCHA has reported those numbers, they've mentioned the source.

The second number is a list of specific deaths, verified with name and with sources that aren't the Gazan authorities' casualty reports, and (possibly, I'm not sure) limited to civilians only. This means, if a death isn't individually verified by whoever collected the data, it's not included in the number.

In short, the discrepancy is about data collection and reporting methodology. I'm pretty sure it has been explained, but there are way too many clicks and rhetorical points to be made from ignoring that, so that's what we're seeing instead.

That's my understanding anyhow. I haven't dug super deep to verify, however.

[viper37]

Which would be a point in Islam's favor I guess if there were only three religions and people were free to move between them depending on their own conscience. But unfortunately that is not the case, at least not historically.

Israel already severely restricts marriage between Jews and non Jews.  Palestinians, especially, can't be naturalize by marriage.

Halakhic restrictions on marriage are applied in Israel. So, for example, a kohen may not marry a convert to Judaism. Similarly, children of adulterous and incestuous unions are restricted as to whom they can marry.^[8] Orthodox halachic rules apply to converts who want to marry in Israel. Under these rules, a conversion to Judaism must strictly follow halachic standards to be recognised as valid. Non-Orthodox conversions are not recognized, nor are some Orthodox conversions that do not meet the requirements of the Chief Rabbinate. For example, a man who converted to Orthodox Judaism in the United States was denied an official marriage in Israel because the Orthodox rabbi who converted him was not recognized in Israel.^[9][10] If a person's Jewish status is in doubt, formal conversion is required in order for them to be allowed to marry according to the Orthodox rules which govern all marriages between Jews in Israel. This frequently occurs with Jews from the former Soviet Union and Ethiopia.^[11]
In order to marry, Jewish couples must attend classes on family purity, even if they are not religious.^[12]

[Valmy]

Israel already severely restricts marriage between Jews and non Jews.  Palestinians, especially, can't be naturalize by marriage.

I didn't say a Christian or Jewish state was any better.

But last I checked you don't have to have a religion dominate a state. And if you do, there are more than just three religions in the entire world.

[The Minsky Moment]

From the original Hamas Covenant

(snip)

Much of the antisemitic language of the Covenant was not included in a much later Declaration of Principles; however, to my knowledge the original Covenant has never been revoked or repudiated.  That requires judgment as to whether the later declaration represents a sincere change in belief, or was merely political rhetoric intended to secure more mainstream Arab financial support.  I never believed there was much doubt on that point, but if any doubt existed, October 7 firmly resolved it.

Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

Avalon Project

And?

You snipped out the earlier part where they murder the Jews.
It's easy to coexist with another religion when you murder their worshippers.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Hamas charter talks about Jews living peacefully in an Islamic Palestine, so the genocide talk is overblown.

The Soviet constitution talked about guarantees of full civil liberties and rights, so talk about Stalinist oppression is overblown.

The US constitution talked about guarantees of full civil liberties and rights, so talk about US Racial oppression is overblown.

Bingo.  All 3 are nonsensical statements.  The Civil War amendments did not prevent lynchings, the KKK and Jim Crow.

[viper37]

Israel already severely restricts marriage between Jews and non Jews.  Palestinians, especially, can't be naturalize by marriage.

I didn't say a Christian or Jewish state was any better.

But last I checked you don't have to have a religion dominate a state. And if you do, there are more than just three religions in the entire world.

It certainly isn't ideal to have a theocracy.  It certainly isn't wishable.  It's certainly not better than what is now.

It doesn't mean than what is now is good by any mean.  Contrary to what some would have us believe.

[grumbler]

So did Grumbler convert or something?

    Yes, that's the only choice other than OMG teh Genosides!

You are a prisoner of your own tunnel vision that has collapsed to the false dichotomy fallacy.  Luckily for the discussion, only you and OvB are so blinkered.

[grumbler]

And?

You snipped out the earlier part where they murder the Jews.
It's easy to coexist with another religion when you murder their worshippers.

And my whole point is that the genocide talk (on both sides) is overblown and presents the real problem of you-too-ism.  Let's face it:  the closest thing to genocide in the current Middle East is flying out of Israeli airbases.

The reason Hamas must be destroyed is not to avert some amorphous threat of genocide, but because Hamas espouses violence without limit and war without end, and Israel does not.  That's the difference worth emphasizing.