Israel-Hamas War 2023

[Razgovory]

So did Grumbler convert or something?

   Yes, that's the only choice other than OMG teh Genosides!

You are a prisoner of your own tunnel vision that has collapsed to the false dichotomy fallacy.  Luckily for the discussion, only you and OvB are so blinkered.

Well, I'm looking for some reason for your heel turn.  I mean arguing that Hamas is for peaceful coexistence after what they did...  That's pretty batty.

[The Minsky Moment]

And?

You snipped out the earlier part where they murder the Jews.
It's easy to coexist with another religion when you murder their worshippers.

And my whole point is that the genocide talk (on both sides) is overblown and presents the real problem of you-too-ism.  Let's face it:  the closest thing to genocide in the current Middle East is flying out of Israeli airbases.

The reason Hamas must be destroyed is not to avert some amorphous threat of genocide, but because Hamas espouses violence without limit and war without end, and Israel does not.  That's the difference worth emphasizing.
 

Goebbels and his crew argued much the same - the real atrocities were being committed by American and British bombers.  The Americans and the British did some morally dubious things in their bombing campaigns, but those campaigns were not the "closest thing in genocide" in WW2 by a long shot, just as the Israeli campaign is not now in the Middle East. It is not even the most brutal military campaign in a conflict right now, with the contestants of the Sudanese civil war and the Rwandan backed militia in the Congo taking that prize. Alas, brutalized African civilians cannot count on the sympathies that Amercian students carry for Gaza.

The evidence at hand is words and actions.  Above we've been discussing words and Hamas has spoken out of both sides of their mouth on their Jewish Question just as the Nazis often did in their day (did elimination from Germany mean "encouragement" to migrate, forced migration, or mass murder?). But as with the Nazis, the key to interpreting the true meaning is by watching what they do. And in terms of action, Hamas has demonstrated again and again their murderous intent towards Jews of all kinds, without regard to age, gender, political views, religious observance, or any other characteristic. October 7 is just a larger scale manifestation of that drive to extermination.

If Hamas does not present an imminent threat of genocide, it is only because of lack of capability to carry it out. But capabilities and correlation of forces can change over time.

[Josquius]

It certainly helps the Palestinians that they live lives broadly recognisable to western eyes and with a heavy media presence.

As to Hamas not being a genocidal threat just because they lack the power... If the Palestinians were in a position where such an idea was remotely within the bounds of possibility then it's unlikely Hamas would have prospered as they did.

Again Hamas are dicks. You'll not get many with the remotest understanding of the situation that doubt this. What has people upset is not Hamas fighters being killed but civilian neighbourhoods being levelled, children blasted to bits, and artificially imposed famine.

[Razgovory]

As to Hamas not being a genocidal threat just because they lack the power... If the Palestinians were in a position where such an idea was remotely within the bounds of possibility then it's unlikely Hamas would have prospered as they did.

How do you figure?

[Valmy]

That the Palestinians are only going down the Hamas path because of desperation. Which is a theory. My issue is that I think there is hardcore on both sides who want nothing but total victory and while they are not the majority, they are numerous enough and fanatical enough to still drive things.

I mean you only have to look over at Israel, and their neighbors in the region for that matter, for evidence of that.

[Valmy]

Again Hamas are dicks. You'll not get many with the remotest understanding of the situation that doubt this.

Will you though?  I think plenty of people feel that Hamas is both righteous and justified.

What has people upset is not Hamas fighters being killed but civilian neighbourhoods being levelled, children blasted to bits, and artificially imposed famine.

Yes. Even for those of us with a basically positive feelings towards Israel this is hard to stomach.

[Razgovory]

That the Palestinians are only going down the Hamas path because of desperation. Which is a theory. My issue is that I think there is hardcore on both sides who want nothing but total victory and while they are not the majority, they are numerous enough and fanatical enough to still drive things.

I mean you only have to look over at Israel, and their neighbors in the region for that matter, for evidence of that.

"Remove the Jews from Palestine" has been the animating spirit of the Palestine movement since it's inception.  That is the default position.  That's what they have always wanted.  They've always been eliminationist.  It's only in the 1990's did the Nationalists come to the conclusion that it was impossible.  One of the reasons Hamas is so popular is that they reject the idea that Israel can't be destroyed by the Palestinians.  They really believe they will win, because God has promised them victory.

[Valmy]

They really believe they will win, because God has promised them victory.

Sure but only when Jesus comes back in the last days. Bushes will tell Muslims where the Jews are hiding and all that. The PA frequently reassures the Palestinians based on that prophecy.

[Razgovory]

They really believe they will win, because God has promised them victory.

Sure but only when Jesus comes back in the last days. Bushes will tell Muslims where the Jews are hiding and all that. The PA frequently reassures the Palestinians based on that prophecy.

You have it backwards.  The Jews need to be destroyed before the end of days.

[Admiral Yi]

As to Hamas not being a genocidal threat just because they lack the power... If the Palestinians were in a position where such an idea was remotely within the bounds of possibility then it's unlikely Hamas would have prospered as they did.

This is kind of weird, Jimmy Carteresque claim.  You're in effect saying as power increases so does empathy.  History shows that is not a universal correlation.

Again Hamas are dicks. You'll not get many with the remotest understanding of the situation that doubt this. What has people upset is not Hamas fighters being killed but civilian neighbourhoods being levelled, children blasted to bits, and artificially imposed famine.

Your argument contains the seeds of its own undoing.  Hamas are angry enough about something, whether it's Jews still being alive, or living on their sacred land that extends from the river to the sea, or Israel not negotiating a two state solution in good faith, to stuff Israeli babies into ovens.  Western protestors are angry too, whether about university endowments that include Israeli stocks, or US weapons sales to Israel, or whatever, to occupy university grounds and buildings, and to sometimes chant violent slogans and sometimes threaten Jewish students and sometimes destroy university property.  To my eyes the implied violence of the protests is increasing.  So if the trend line of implied violence moves closer to actual violence, what does it mean to support Palestinian civilians and oppose Hamas?

[Valmy]

You have it backwards.  The Jews need to be destroyed before the end of days.

That is not my understanding.

But hey there can be multiple interpretations

[Razgovory]

You have it backwards.  The Jews need to be destroyed before the end of days.

That is not my understanding.

But hey there can be multiple interpretations

The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: "Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!" – But the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922

[Valmy]

Right right. At some future point during the last days the Muslims will fight against the Jews and rocks and bushes and trees (except for the one Jew tree) will help the Muslims kill them. But I still got the feeling this is a prophesy about the last days, not a command for the Muslims to do this now in order to bring the last days about.

[Jacob]

Who are you to argue with the fatwa of Imam Razgovory?

[Razgovory]

What is the purpose of this insult?