Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Richard Hakluyt]

Sheilbh will be happy to read that British police chiefs agree with him, the police should not be cracking down on middle class leisure activities like driving to places for exercising.

Also happy they'll stop harassing corner shops for stocking "non-essential" Easter Eggs or Warrington Police "summonsing" "multiple people from the same household going to the shops for non-essential items". I'm really fascinated by the last one because the government's already shut down non-essential shops. So did this family just go to the nearest Asda and only buy biscuits or other such fripperies

But yes, I'm happy, because the vast majority of people are following the rules and we don't need the police undermining that.

I checked over at the Daily Mail website and the people there seemed to be in favour of curtailing over-zealous actions by the plod. I agreed with a large part of a Richard Littlejohn article; now wishing I was Catholic so that I could go to confession and get absolved for that 

[Tamas]

Sheilbh will be happy to read that British police chiefs agree with him, the police should not be cracking down on middle class leisure activities like driving to places for exercising.

Also happy they'll stop harassing corner shops for stocking "non-essential" Easter Eggs or Warrington Police "summonsing" "multiple people from the same household going to the shops for non-essential items". I'm really fascinated by the last one because the government's already shut down non-essential shops. So did this family just go to the nearest Asda and only buy biscuits or other such fripperies

But yes, I'm happy, because the vast majority of people are following the rules and we don't need the police undermining that.

I checked over at the Daily Mail website and the people there seemed to be in favour of curtailing over-zealous actions by the plod. I agreed with a large part of a Richard Littlejohn article; now wishing I was Catholic so that I could go to confession and get absolved for that 

I think it does not bode well that after a mere week of the lockdown there is already a societal pushback against the police, that's also gaining traction. This ridiculous middle class rebellion against tyranny will be wielded as a flag by the mob in a month when they have had enough of no parties and football matches.

[Sheilbh]

I checked over at the Daily Mail website and the people there seemed to be in favour of curtailing over-zealous actions by the plod. I agreed with a large part of a Richard Littlejohn article; now wishing I was Catholic so that I could go to confession and get absolved for that 

Fair. We need people to comply, if they stop we (especially) don't have the police to enforce it. We're already possibly seeing the start of a social revolt against lockdown in the south of Italy (who have over double the number of police officers per capita of the UK). So we need them to do this voluntarily - that is less likely if they think the police are acting arbitrarily and roaming the country shutting down corner shops for stocking Easter Eggs. I think more generally most people will do the right thing but we will need a pressure valve of exercise outside etc to keep this going for 3 months+.

I also think in terms of police messaging there's basically been two approaches. One is "we are enforcing this law and have fined x number of people/we have clamped donw on x, y and z/we took this drone video of people misbehaving" (Warrington, Derbyshire, Devon) and the other is basically "we've been on patrol and the streets were quiet thank you for following guidance/we're still here if needed" (Merseyside and a few others). I think for normal crime the first message sort of works, because what it's about is reassuring people that the police are there. But this isn't normal, it's trying to get everyone in the country to change their behaviour and I feel like the latter messages which sort of amplifies the vast majority of people are following the rules will work better. Partly because people still want to do the right thing, but also like being part of the majority if they see that people are breaking the rules I think it's more likely that they'll think they can get away with it too.

Also the ONS have released the figures up to 20 March of community covid-19 deaths and there were an additional 40 deaths attributed to covid-19 outside of hospitals in that period.

[Sheilbh]

There was some debate here about stores like Müller, which are primarily a drug store (essential), but also have large departments for stationery, toys, games, movies, etc. I think they're permitted to sell the former but not the latter. As it would not fair to competitors selling those non-essential goods only and are not allowed to open.

Over here these sections are cordoned off to the public. The idea also being that you don't brand to draw in more traffic to the stores for nonessential items.

I think that's the same here - but I don't live near a big supermarket so couldn't be sure. Around me it's all the city centre style branches. But it would be crazy to close say, the big Asda, if you could just close the clothes section? Do the non-urban Brits know?

[garbon]

There was some debate here about stores like Müller, which are primarily a drug store (essential), but also have large departments for stationery, toys, games, movies, etc. I think they're permitted to sell the former but not the latter. As it would not fair to competitors selling those non-essential goods only and are not allowed to open.

Over here these sections are cordoned off to the public. The idea also being that you don't brand to draw in more traffic to the stores for nonessential items.

I think that's the same here - but I don't live near a big supermarket so couldn't be sure. Around me it's all the city centre style branches. But it would be crazy to close say, the big Asda, if you could just close the clothes section? Do the non-urban Brits know?

I'd think they could close a section if equipped for that. Like I know the Tesco extra near me can close of sections (like clothing) at night as they have gates they pull down in the evenings while rest of grocery shopping is still open.

[Admiral Yi]

Shelf, I've said before I just don't fathom that attitude about the cops and containment, but you seem to have Tricky and the court on board so all I can do is wish you guys the best of luck with that approach.

[celedhring]

Data from the area of Conca D'Ódena - which is Catalonia's hardest hit region on a per capita basis - seem rather illuminating about the whole excess dead issue. This is a rural area with roughly 70,000 people. The outbreak began with a community dinner in late February where 80 people participated. Many of them worked at the local hospital which created a nosocomial nightmare.

Anyway, their 5-year average for people dying in March is 46, this year it's been 140. However, their official # for Covid-19 deaths is 67. Many of those might be undiagnosed Covid, or just the lack of proper care for other diseases.

[Tamas]

Shelf, I've said before I just don't fathom that attitude about the cops and containment, but you seem to have Tricky and the court on board so all I can do is wish you guys the best of luck with that approach.

It a national emergency unseen since WW2 and we are fighting to prevent tens of thousands of avoidable deaths, but that is not reason enough to risk undue inconvenience on midde-class-y leisure activities!

[Sheilbh]

Shelf, I've said before I just don't fathom that attitude about the cops and containment, but you seem to have Tricky and the court on board so all I can do is wish you guys the best of luck with that approach.

Ta - I don't think it's the court. I think it's the government and the national association of police chiefs that's putting this guidance together. One of the other issues they want to address was inconsistency, so Warrington had issued over 100 finds in two days and were clearly "enforcing", Bedfordshire police had issued zero fines and were focusing on persuasion and only fining people who wouldn't do as asked.

[mongers]

There was some debate here about stores like Müller, which are primarily a drug store (essential), but also have large departments for stationery, toys, games, movies, etc. I think they're permitted to sell the former but not the latter. As it would not fair to competitors selling those non-essential goods only and are not allowed to open.

Over here these sections are cordoned off to the public. The idea also being that you don't brand to draw in more traffic to the stores for nonessential items.

I think that's the same here - but I don't live near a big supermarket so couldn't be sure. Around me it's all the city centre style branches. But it would be crazy to close say, the big Asda, if you could just close the clothes section? Do the non-urban Brits know?

I went into a medium sized Sainsbury's for a couple of minutes last night and didn't register any closers, but I was focused on 'the mission'.

The waitrose I was in last friday certainly didn't have any lanes closed, so I presume one could have bought some stationary or a mug/frying pan.

[Admiral Yi]

Ta - I don't think it's the court. I think it's the government and the national association of police chiefs that's putting this guidance together. One of the other issues they want to address was inconsistency, so Warrington had issued over 100 finds in two days and were clearly "enforcing", Bedfordshire police had issued zero fines and were focusing on persuasion and only fining people who wouldn't do as asked.

You posted a link upstream about a judge saying something about ministerial whims or something like that.

[Admiral Yi]

Ironic that the dirty gypsy immigrant is the one in favor of keeping a stiff upper lip.

[Sheilbh]

Ta - I don't think it's the court. I think it's the government and the national association of police chiefs that's putting this guidance together. One of the other issues they want to address was inconsistency, so Warrington had issued over 100 finds in two days and were clearly "enforcing", Bedfordshire police had issued zero fines and were focusing on persuasion and only fining people who wouldn't do as asked.

You posted a link upstream about a judge saying something about ministerial whims or something like that.

Retired Supreme Court justice - and he's

The waitrose I was in last friday certainly didn't have any lanes closed, so I presume one could have bought some stationary or a mug/frying pan.

Yeah - I could see that being essential. I need envelopes to send some stuff to my bank for example as branches are largely closed and there's still some stuff you can't do online, similarly with kitchen equipment. I was thinking more of, say, a big Asda with a huge George clothes section that you might close that off.

It a national emergency unseen since WW2 and we are fighting to prevent tens of thousands of avoidable deaths, but that is not reason enough to risk undue inconvenience on midde-class-y leisure activities!

Outside of London it's not middle class to have a car or use it. Similarly I don't see how police harassing corner shops (who are allowed to be open) for stocking "non-essential" products like Easter Eggs is particularly middle class.

[Tamas]

I just don't think these quite tiny examples should be helped to drive a "police, back off!" narrative barely a week into a lockdown that a) its going to get more strict soon and b) will last a couple of months.

[Agelastus]

I went into a medium sized Sainsbury's for a couple of minutes last night and didn't register any closers, but I was focused on 'the mission'.

The waitrose I was in last friday certainly didn't have any lanes closed, so I presume one could have bought some stationary or a mug/frying pan.

Well, with everybody supposed to work from home, if possible, stationery is actually a vital supply. I know I will need to buy some printer paper soon; I am just hoping to hold out for my next Tesco delivery.

I would probably consider the ability to buy frying pans etc. to be essential as well with restaurants closed. There's people trying to cook at home who may never have cooked before.