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[crazy canuck]

They're not my cup of tea, but motor sports are absolutely sports.  I understand it's very physically demanding to be behind the wheel.

You can make a distinction between sports that require physical fitness in order to perform at your peak, and sports where performance directly depends on physical attributes.  In the first category, most everyone can get fit enough to the point that it's no longer a factor in performance.  In the second category, you may just be out of luck if you didn't win the genetic lottery.  Motorsports is probably somewhere in the middle; some physical demands are merely fitness-related, but then things like reaction times and spatial awareness you're born with.  Poker and chess are probably solidly in the first category.

I don't know what you would categorize as a sport which requires physical fitness vs one which requires physical attributes.

Where for example would marathon running appears to be in your first category.  That sport is all about being the most fit.   If you assert that most everyone can become fit enough for a sport which relies entirely on fitness then surely most of us should be able to become world class marathon runners?

Where your logic breaks down is you significantly underestimate how much is involved in becoming a fit athlete.

I guess the difference is in what factor limits you first.  If you're a marathon runner, the physical limit to which you can train up your endurance to is what ultimately limits you.  If you're a chess player, then ultimately your chess prowess is what limits you.  Poor fitness can lead to you making mental errors and not performing up to your chess prowess, but you can't work your way to beating Kasparov just by hitting the gym for more hours.

So what I think you have done is just accepted that chess is a sport depending on how you now go on to define chess prowess.

[DGuller]

For example, if you have played poker against a skilled player, the physical skills involved in the bluff are obvious after you know it was a bluff.

What are those physical skills?

The ability to control all of your natural non verbal cues.

Many of the younger generation professional poker players mock the general public's preoccupation with physical tells.  I'm not sure I completely agree with them, but maybe against competent players they have a point.  In my experience tells are only useful against people who think that tells are important, and think they're being clever by reversing them.

Ok, tell you what, if you know guys who cannot control showing that they have good or shitty hands, let me know when they are playing.  I know some guys who would love to sit in on those games.

What does that have to do with what I said?

[DGuller]

So what I think you have done is just accepted that chess is a sport depending on how you now go on to define chess prowess.

I don't think I did.  My definition of whether something is a sport is whether the skill that ultimately puts a limit on your performance is physical in nature.  Chess players are ultimately limited by their mental aptitude, so are poker players.  Racing drivers mostly are limited by their mental skills, but some of those mental skills do need to be paired with physical attributes, so they're sort of in the middle.  Runners and gymnasts are ultimately limited almost entirely by their physical attributes.

[crazy canuck]

For example, if you have played poker against a skilled player, the physical skills involved in the bluff are obvious after you know it was a bluff.

What are those physical skills?

The ability to control all of your natural non verbal cues.

Many of the younger generation professional poker players mock the general public's preoccupation with physical tells.  I'm not sure I completely agree with them, but maybe against competent players they have a point.  In my experience tells are only useful against people who think that tells are important, and think they're being clever by reversing them.

Ok, tell you what, if you know guys who cannot control showing that they have good or shitty hands, let me know when they are playing.  I know some guys who would love to sit in on those games.

What does that have to do with what I said?

I would also like to play poker with you, if you don't know the answer to your question 

[alfred russel]

I've played poker with DGuller. Trust me, you don't want to play poker with DGuller.

[DGuller]

For example, if you have played poker against a skilled player, the physical skills involved in the bluff are obvious after you know it was a bluff.

What are those physical skills?

The ability to control all of your natural non verbal cues.

Many of the younger generation professional poker players mock the general public's preoccupation with physical tells.  I'm not sure I completely agree with them, but maybe against competent players they have a point.  In my experience tells are only useful against people who think that tells are important, and think they're being clever by reversing them.

Ok, tell you what, if you know guys who cannot control showing that they have good or shitty hands, let me know when they are playing.  I know some guys who would love to sit in on those games.

What does that have to do with what I said?

I would also like to play poker with you, if you don't know the answer to your question 

And I would gladly play, but until we can get that arranged, what would be your answer?  I said that many young pros don't think physical tells are an important part of poker success.  How does that relate to whether I know some guys who cannot control showing their hand?  I think the implication is that it's not that hard to control showing whether you have good or shitty hands, otherwise tells would be useful.

[DGuller]

I've played poker with DGuller. Trust me, you don't want to play poker with DGuller.

Don't tap the tank. 

Seriously, though, any young mediocre poker pro will probably tear me apart over the long run.  You have to dedicate a lot of time to stay on top of your game these days, and it's been 10 years since poker interested me as anything other than an occasional socializing activity with other poker-player friends.  That said, if you're the kind of poker player who thinks of poker as a game of physical tells, you're the kind of poker player I'm feeling good about playing, at least until I find out more about you (maybe you're clever enough to pretend to believe what the general public believes about tells, just to reel me in).

[HVC]

I've played poker with DGuller. Trust me, you don't want to play poker with DGuller.

He's a crier, huh?

[The Brain]

would you play with me dg

[Sheilbh]

Cycling is also boring except the mountain climbing and the time trials.

Motorsports are nearly always boring. 

Cycling is great. I hate motor sports (with the minor exception of the Isle of Man TT)

I can see an argument for chess but I think there's got to be some sort of physical skill - now that can be minor (controlling a dart) but while all sports have mental stress, if it's all mental then I don't think it's a sport. Which isn't to take away from chess as its own (genuinely terrifying) thing.

[The Brain]

Cycling is also boring except the mountain climbing and the time trials.

Motorsports are nearly always boring. 

Cycling is great. I hate motor sports (with the minor exception of the Isle of Man TT)

Riding or spectating?

[Sheilbh]

Riding or spectating?

I can ride a bike in town. But not as a hobby like some people I know, and I wouuldn't put it in the same universe as the tours which I do watch

[The Brain]

Riding or spectating?

I can ride a bike in town. But not as a hobby like some people I know, and I wouuldn't put it in the same universe as the tours which I do watch

So no 200 mph down a Man country lane?

[Sheilbh]

I can't drive any motorvehicle.

But some of my family are from the Isle of Man so I spent a lot of time as a kid watching VHS of the TTs down the years.

[Grey Fox]

You people are either degenerates or monsters. I can't decide.