UK Parliamentary General Election 8th June 2017

Started by mongers, April 19, 2017, 08:44:06 PM

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Tamas

I am fine with it as long as we don't call it free, because education is something a society really should invest in.

However, you are right: I think people loving this idea do not recognise that it would devalue college/university degrees further, and they, by and large, would end up as required minimums for entering the job market, instead of a bonus in finding employment.

Josquius

Quote from: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 04:51:27 AM
QuoteBut then that's what the left is all about. You don't vote for purely what is best for you personally. You vote for what is best for society.

:lmfao:



Constructive

Quote from: garbon on June 30, 2017, 04:56:07 AMve

How is that best for society? Is there a shortage of people going to university in the UK?

That isn't the issue.
The issue is that the demographics are wrong. Disproportionatly skewed away from the poor.
Some of this can be explained upstream with less encouragement and worse schools.
But without a doubt tuition fees also play a role in scaring away the poor from university.
This has dire effects for social mobility and equality, factors which in turn lead into issues like crime and people voting for stupid bullshit like brexit.
Also it means Britain isn't fully exploiting its human resources if it is only looking towards the middle and upper classes to source its top thinkers.
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Richard Hakluyt

There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.



garbon

Quote from: Tyr on June 30, 2017, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 04:51:27 AM
QuoteBut then that's what the left is all about. You don't vote for purely what is best for you personally. You vote for what is best for society.

:lmfao:



Constructive

Quote from: garbon on June 30, 2017, 04:56:07 AMve

How is that best for society? Is there a shortage of people going to university in the UK?

That isn't the issue.
The issue is that the demographics are wrong. Disproportionatly skewed away from the poor.
Some of this can be explained upstream with less encouragement and worse schools.
But without a doubt tuition fees also play a role in scaring away the poor from university.
This has dire effects for social mobility and equality, factors which in turn lead into issues like crime and people voting for stupid bullshit like brexit.
Also it means Britain isn't fully exploiting its human resources if it is only looking towards the middle and upper classes to source its top thinkers.

Oh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Tamas

I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

Josquius

#335
QuoteI think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.
What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

QuoteOh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.

Irrelevant to the issue. And a lot easier said than done, I've know idea where the government would even begin trying to turn new universities back into polytechnics, a few would take whatever incentives are offered but others would strongly fight against it.
Nobody has suggested it regardless.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 30, 2017, 06:32:43 AM
There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.




As said its not the only factor.
I'd like to see England broken down by region to try and get something more comparable to Scotland.
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Admiral Yi

Have right to strike laws been changed in Yoo Kay since the endemic strikes of the 70s?

Valmy

Quote from: Tyr on June 30, 2017, 01:10:15 PM
What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

What. The. Fuck? I think it can describe both policies at least how they are sold to the voters anyway.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Admiral Yi

You're the greatest Squeeze.  If you didn't exist we would have to invent you.

garbon

Quote from: Tyr on June 30, 2017, 01:10:15 PM
QuoteI think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.
What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

QuoteOh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.

Irrelevant to the issue. And a lot easier said than done, I've know idea where the government would even begin trying to turn new universities back into polytechnics, a few would take whatever incentives are offered but others would strongly fight against it.
Nobody has suggested it regardless.

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 30, 2017, 06:32:43 AM
There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.




As said its not the only factor.
I'd like to see England broken down by region to try and get something more comparable to Scotland.

WTF? The impact of social policies are irrelevant to the issue? :huh:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Jacob

Quote from: Tamas on June 30, 2017, 06:53:37 AM
I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

You're the greatest Tammy. If you didn't exist we would have to invent you.

Richard Hakluyt

I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

Tamas

Btw I love how liberals are the source of all evil for both the far left and right

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 30, 2017, 04:24:21 PM
I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

Any idea what the default rate is?

Richard Hakluyt

Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 30, 2017, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on June 30, 2017, 04:24:21 PM
I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

Any idea what the default rate is?

It might be as high as 50%.