UK Parliamentary General Election 8th June 2017

[Tamas]

I am fine with it as long as we don't call it free, because education is something a society really should invest in.

However, you are right: I think people loving this idea do not recognise that it would devalue college/university degrees further, and they, by and large, would end up as required minimums for entering the job market, instead of a bonus in finding employment.

[Josquius]

But then that's what the left is all about. You don't vote for purely what is best for you personally. You vote for what is best for society.

Constructive

ve

How is that best for society? Is there a shortage of people going to university in the UK?

That isn't the issue.
The issue is that the demographics are wrong. Disproportionatly skewed away from the poor.
Some of this can be explained upstream with less encouragement and worse schools.
But without a doubt tuition fees also play a role in scaring away the poor from university.
This has dire effects for social mobility and equality, factors which in turn lead into issues like crime and people voting for stupid bullshit like brexit.
Also it means Britain isn't fully exploiting its human resources if it is only looking towards the middle and upper classes to source its top thinkers.

[Richard Hakluyt]

There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.

[garbon]

But then that's what the left is all about. You don't vote for purely what is best for you personally. You vote for what is best for society.

Constructive

ve

How is that best for society? Is there a shortage of people going to university in the UK?

That isn't the issue.
The issue is that the demographics are wrong. Disproportionatly skewed away from the poor.
Some of this can be explained upstream with less encouragement and worse schools.
But without a doubt tuition fees also play a role in scaring away the poor from university.
This has dire effects for social mobility and equality, factors which in turn lead into issues like crime and people voting for stupid bullshit like brexit.
Also it means Britain isn't fully exploiting its human resources if it is only looking towards the middle and upper classes to source its top thinkers.

Oh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.

[Tamas]

I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

[Josquius]

I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

Oh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.

Irrelevant to the issue. And a lot easier said than done, I've know idea where the government would even begin trying to turn new universities back into polytechnics, a few would take whatever incentives are offered but others would strongly fight against it.
Nobody has suggested it regardless.

There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.

As said its not the only factor.
I'd like to see England broken down by region to try and get something more comparable to Scotland.

[Admiral Yi]

Have right to strike laws been changed in Yoo Kay since the endemic strikes of the 70s?

[Valmy]

What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

What. The. Fuck? I think it can describe both policies at least how they are sold to the voters anyway.

[Admiral Yi]

You're the greatest Squeeze.  If you didn't exist we would have to invent you.

[garbon]

I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

What. The. Fuck?
That's completely the opposite of socialist policies. That far more describes liberal policies.
Socialist policies are all about looking at things holistically, considering how a change in one factor will impact things elsewhere down the line.
Which is a source of a lot of the criticism against socialism as well as the praise.

Oh so social policies shouldn't take into account likely outcomes like what Tamas notes? It isn't really a driver of social mobility once it just becomes a barrier to entry to getting say a receptionist position.

Irrelevant to the issue. And a lot easier said than done, I've know idea where the government would even begin trying to turn new universities back into polytechnics, a few would take whatever incentives are offered but others would strongly fight against it.
Nobody has suggested it regardless.

There are no fees in Scotland and the participation rate for people from poor backgrounds is far worse than in England and Wales :

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/education/2015/12/worst-place-poor-students-uk-scotland

The advantage of the loans system, for people from poor backgrounds, is that it pushes the costs into the future; having to find the money upfront is precisely the most difficult financial challenge for the poor.

As said its not the only factor.
I'd like to see England broken down by region to try and get something more comparable to Scotland.

WTF? The impact of social policies are irrelevant to the issue?

[Jacob]

I think if there is one common thing you can say about the different socialist spending policies and their supporters is that they seldom think past the first act which is them receiving extra money. It is understandable, but still counterproductive.

You're the greatest Tammy. If you didn't exist we would have to invent you.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

[Tamas]

Btw I love how liberals are the source of all evil for both the far left and right

[Admiral Yi]

I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

Any idea what the default rate is?

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't like the interest rate charged for the student loans, it is currently 6% IIRC. Bank of England rate +1 or 2% would be better imo.

Any idea what the default rate is?

It might be as high as 50%.