What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Barrister]

This kind of talk frustrates me to no end.

Of course it does, because it shows that people are realizing the damage the "respectable" radical right agenda is doing to the US.

There are two separate ways to criticize Trump.  First, is that he is an individual almost unprecedented in his lack of qualifications and character to be President.  And second, that he is a Republican and advances a more-or-less Republican agenda.

If you want to argue the first, it's an argument that has a great chance to draw in even other members of the GOP to agree with it.  But when you start making the argument that Pence, who is a fairly bland but typical Republican, is just as bad as Trump, you drive those other Republicans right back in to the arms of Trump.

Pence and his ilk set the stage for Trump. More of their "bland but typical Republican" policy (which is quite radical and in Pence's case damaged his home state of Indiana significantly) is not the antidote to Trumpism. Rather it's slightly more competent Trumpism, which has the potential to damage the Republic even further than Trump's buffoonish incompetence.

I love how (in Pence's case) defending the very traditional definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman - a definition, by the way, that is still accepted in the majority of the world - is in fact "radical".  The "radical" position has been to change the definition to accept gay marriage.  And look - just because something is a radical change doesn't make it wrong.  I'm one to quote Goldwater on extremism from time to time.  But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

The "damage" to Indiana wasn't caused by Pence - it was caused by out of state boycotts of Indiana.

I thought it well established that Trump has very little to nothing in common with traditional conservatism.  There's a reason why some conservative commentators have completely repudiated Trump, and why GOP lawmakers are so uncomfortable with him (though yes, many have made the deal with the devil in order to try and enact parts of their own agenda).

[CountDeMoney]

More of their "bland but typical Republican" policy (which is quite radical and in Pence's case damaged his home state of Indiana significantly)

It did?  Not a loaded question... I honestly don't know what damage he caused.  About a third of my co-workers live in Indiana and nobody seemed to be complaining about him when he was governor, though to be fair I didn't know anyone who seemed like a fan either.  Seemed to be just a whole lot of "meh" and then "lolwut?" when Trump picked him as his running mate.

Personally, I don't think he's got much on the ball upstairs.  Evangelical, but not much more than that.  Can walk and talk and chew gum like a professional, though, so he gets points for that.  But he's no policy wonk beyond fetusfucking.

[Jacob]

It did?  Not a loaded question... I honestly don't know what damage he caused.  About a third of my co-workers live in Indiana and nobody seemed to be complaining about him when he was governor, though to be fair I didn't know anyone who seemed like a fan either.  Seemed to be just a whole lot of "meh" and then "lolwut?" when Trump picked him as his running mate.

The two big ones are, IMO:

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act - legalizing discrimination by landlords, employers, and businesses. Backlash from larger businesses with less bigoted HR policies has led to losses to the state economy estimated in the hundreds of millions.

Dramatically slashing funding for Planned Parenthood, putting HIV testing out of reach in rural locations during a sharp rise in HIV cases. This lead to a verifiable increase in otherwise preventable cases (see f. ex. the Chicago Tribune investigation in Austin, Indiana). The cost to taxpayers of the outbreak, again, is estimated in hundreds of millions.

He's not so hot on anything helping poor people either (see his actions on minimum wage) in the name of helping the economy and creating jobs, but Indiana's economic numbers are pretty average at best.

[The Minsky Moment]

US legal types: WTF happens if someone flat-out refuses to comply with such a subpoena?

He can be held in contempt but the procedure is more elaborate then would be typical in court.

[CountDeMoney]

US legal types: WTF happens if someone flat-out refuses to comply with such a subpoena?

He can be held in contempt but the procedure is more elaborate then would be typical in court.

Body attachment issued!  Marshals, discharge your duties!

Not.

[Jacob]

I love how (in Pence's case) defending the very traditional definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman - a definition, by the way, that is still accepted in the majority of the world - is in fact "radical".

It is radical. Legalizing bigotry on political grounds is a radical position IMO, even if you dress it up as "defending traditions."

The "radical" position has been to change the definition to accept gay marriage.  And look - just because something is a radical change doesn't make it wrong.  I'm one to quote Goldwater on extremism from time to time.  But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

Slashing funding to Planned Parenthood resulting in the spread of HIV is not radical? Legislating based on white evangelical Christianity is not a radical position in a country that ostensibly guarantees freedom of religion?

I think it is.

The "damage" to Indiana wasn't caused by Pence - it was caused by out of state boycotts of Indiana.

In response to the radical policies he implemented legalizing discrimination, yes.

I thought it well established that Trump has very little to nothing in common with traditional conservatism.  There's a reason why some conservative commentators have completely repudiated Trump, and why GOP lawmakers are so uncomfortable with him (though yes, many have made the deal with the devil in order to try and enact parts of their own agenda).

There's a significant overlap IMO. The radical right white evangelical movement conservatism is full of frauds, hucksters, and con-artists monetizing the fears of old white people. Trump is the current end-point of that evolution but he is not some aberration appearing out of nowhere. The years of the right wing political and media establishments monetizing Obama and Hillary conspiracies, over-priced gold and back-yard bunkers, survivalist powdered meals, Islamophobia, prosperity gospel, is what allowed Trump's political career to happen.

[Jacob]

Here's a link summarizing daily developments: https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/

[Jacob]

The Trump administration has written to Congress, officially triggering the 90-day consultation period required before renegotiation of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico can begin.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/nafta-renegotiation-congress-1.4121341

[Jacob]

NAFTA up for renegotiation.

The Trump administration has written to Congress, officially triggering the 90-day consultation period required before renegotiation of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico can begin.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/nafta-renegotiation-congress-1.4121341

[grumbler]

But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

It is impossible for me to believe that an informed adult could make your assertion.  Pence is a radical, by any reasonable standards.  His re-routing of money from public schools to subsidize the wealthy and the religious sending kids to private and parochial schools, without any system of checks or balances, was radical and unreasonable.  His position that his religiously-motivated definition of marriage is the only possible definition for a government to hold is radical and unreasonable.  He's not a radical because he believes what he believes; he is a radical because he believes that the purpose of government is to force me to conform to his beliefs, as well.

[CountDeMoney]

But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

It is impossible for me to believe that an informed adult could make your assertion.  Pence is a radical, by any reasonable standards.  His re-routing of money from public schools to subsidize the wealthy and the religious sending kids to private and parochial schools, without any system of checks or balances, was radical and unreasonable.  His position that his religiously-motivated definition of marriage is the only possible definition for a government to hold is radical and unreasonable.  He's not a radical because he believes what he believes; he is a radical because he believes that the purpose of government is to force me to conform to his beliefs, as well.

Don't forget funerals for miscarriages!

[grumbler]

But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

It is impossible for me to believe that an informed adult could make your assertion.  Pence is a radical, by any reasonable standards.  His re-routing of money from public schools to subsidize the wealthy and the religious sending kids to private and parochial schools, without any system of checks or balances, was radical and unreasonable.  His position that his religiously-motivated definition of marriage is the only possible definition for a government to hold is radical and unreasonable.  He's not a radical because he believes what he believes; he is a radical because he believes that the purpose of government is to force me to conform to his beliefs, as well.

Don't forget funerals for miscarriages!

Oh, I just threw the first few things that came to mind out there.  Yeah, the funerals for fetuses thing was radical, but was stopped by the courts before it went into effect.  There's plenty more to choose from.  Pence is a "human from the moment of conception" guy.

[viper37]

I love how (in Pence's case) defending the very traditional definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman - a definition, by the way, that is still accepted in the majority of the world - is in fact "radical".  The "radical" position has been to change the definition to accept gay marriage.  And look - just because something is a radical change doesn't make it wrong.  I'm one to quote Goldwater on extremism from time to time.  But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

The "damage" to Indiana wasn't caused by Pence - it was caused by out of state boycotts of Indiana.

I thought it well established that Trump has very little to nothing in common with traditional conservatism.  There's a reason why some conservative commentators have completely repudiated Trump, and why GOP lawmakers are so uncomfortable with him (though yes, many have made the deal with the devil in order to try and enact parts of their own agenda).

You know, one could make the same argument about Turkey.
Do you think Erdogan is a moderate?

If Pence pushed for a traditional muslim agenda, would you still agree he is defending tradition?  Are Iran and Saudi Arabia defending traditions?  This is where a Pence's agenda leads to.  This is why I do not want religion creeping into politics, even if we must restrict the religious freedom of discrimination and we must push it one step further to lock it tight out our lives.

[Malthus]

But words have meaning, and it's impossible to use the word "radical" in talking about Mike Pence.

It is impossible for me to believe that an informed adult could make your assertion.  Pence is a radical, by any reasonable standards.  His re-routing of money from public schools to subsidize the wealthy and the religious sending kids to private and parochial schools, without any system of checks or balances, was radical and unreasonable.  His position that his religiously-motivated definition of marriage is the only possible definition for a government to hold is radical and unreasonable.  He's not a radical because he believes what he believes; he is a radical because he believes that the purpose of government is to force me to conform to his beliefs, as well.

Don't forget funerals for miscarriages!

Oh, I just threw the first few things that came to mind out there.  Yeah, the funerals for fetuses thing was radical, but was stopped by the courts before it went into effect.  There's plenty more to choose from.  Pence is a "human from the moment of conception" guy.

The question though is whether he's relatively* sane on foreign issues - the President has the most impact on those.

* relative to Trump.


Plus, I'm a dirty foreigner. Extremism on domestic issues won't affect me as much! 

[Zanza]

The Trump administration has written to Congress, officially triggering the 90-day consultation period required before renegotiation of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico can begin.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/nafta-renegotiation-congress-1.4121341

The Economist's interview with Trump didn't sound like he has any clue what he even wants to change.